The Evolving Leader

‘The Seven Deadly Sins’ with Guy Leschziner

• Guy Leschziner • Season 7 • Episode 24

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“Sleep is intrinsic to every aspect of our waking life.” (Dr Guy Leschziner)

In this episode of The Evolving Leader, co-hosts Jean Gomes and Emma Sinclair delve into the biological roots of our most human behaviours with Professor Guy Leschziner, neurologist and author of The Seven Deadly Sins: The Biology of Being Human. From the neuroscience behind gluttony, anger and pride to the unpredictable nature of envy and the myth of free will, Guy offers a powerful reframing of how biology shapes leadership, judgement, and motivation. He also shares essential sleep research and practical guidance that every leader should hear, particularly those running on too little rest and too much pressure.

Whether you're leading through complexity or seeking to better understand the hidden forces that shape your thinking and responses, this conversation offers insight into how our brains construct reality and how leaders can respond with greater empathy, adaptability and presence. 

#Leadership #Neuroscience #GuyLeschziner #EvolvingLeader #SleepScience #CognitiveDiversity #AdaptiveLeadership #SevenDeadlySins #ExecutiveWellbeing #FreeWill #Motivation #Neurobiology #Empathy #DecisionMaking

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Jean Gomes:

We see things not as they are, but as we are. That quote, variously attributed to Emmanuel Kant and Ace nine, underscores the fact that our perception of reality varies greatly depending on our state, circumstance and biology that shapes our inner canvas. In recent years, we've come to understand that cognitive diversity opens up new possibilities in how we can create value at work, rather than being something to try and force into an acceptable neurotypical norm, with insight and empathy, with different ways of seeing and experiencing the world, we can lead to breakthroughs that normal experience cannot. In this show, we take an intriguing tour of the work of Professor Guy leshinger, a neurologist whose recent book seven deadly sins, the biology of being human, provides insights into the link between our biology and our worst behaviours. And for those of you could do with a little more sleep. We also talk about his pioneering sleep research as an added bonus, tune in to a fascinating conversation on The Evolving Leader. Welcome to The Evolving Leader, a show born from the belief that we need deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to confront the world's challenges. I'm Jean Gomes.

Emma Sinclair:

And I'm Emma Sinclair.

Jean Gomes:

Emma, how you feeling today?

Emma Sinclair:

I am feeling, I Well, I'm feeling quite upbeat. Um, I'm feeling, I have to be honest, I'm feeling a little bit tired. I've had quite a full on fortnight of lots of different work and travel, but I'm feeling quite hopeful. There's lots of signs of spring around I don't know about you, but I've been seeing a lot of daffodils, which make making me smile recently. But I'm also feeling really grateful to be asked to join yourself, Jean, on this evolving leader, and to get to speak with our guest today, because I have been reading, reading his his works over the last few years, so I'm grateful to be joining you in this conversation. Jean, how are you feeling?

Jean Gomes:

I am feeling exhausted, to be honest. But you know, I think you were being you're underplaying it, because both you and I, the week before last were in Australia, and I think the jet lag is still, is still playing out. But I am also feeling extremely excited because our guests work is touching a nerve, opening up new avenues of thought for us. So yeah, I'm delighted because today we're joined by professor, guy lessinger. He's a consultant neurologist within the Department of Neurology and sleep disorder Centre at Guy's and St Thomas's hospitals and several other London hospitals. He was clinical lead for the sleep disorders centre guy's hospital and one of Europe's largest sleep units for over a decade, where he has conducted 1000s of research studies. He's also professor of neurology and sleep medicine at the Institute of psychiatry, psychology and neuroscience King's College London. His research encompasses a very wide range of areas, including narcolepsy, epilepsy, sleepwalking, Cline Levin syndrome, I've never heard of that, and restless leg syndrome. Professor lesson Joe is also increasingly prominent figure on the public stage with several books and TV and radio series. These include two best selling books, the nocturnal brain and the secret world of sleep, now translated into 14 languages, and The Man Who Tasted Words. Professor Leschziner's latest book which we are loving seven deadly sins, the biology of being human is another hugely recommended read, and the scope of his research is truly incredible. So I hope today we can encourage our listeners to pause and tune in deeply to this conversation. Professor Leschziner, welcome to The Evolving Leader.

Guy Leschziner:

Thank you very much, Jean. If you ever need a job as an agent, you can come this way. That was a very good sales pitch.

Emma Sinclair:

Guy, welcome to the show. How are you feeling? And we feel like we should really ask, Did you get a good night's sleep?

Guy Leschziner:

Well, actually, last night I did, but on a Friday afternoon is never a good time to ask anybody how they're feeling. So definitely feeling the wear of the last week.

Jean Gomes:

Yeah, understand how that that can, that can seem. Not so long ago, sleep wasn't regarded as a problem by most people, and in business, the adage of sleep is for babies held a lot of sway. I remember hearing somebody from a very senior leadership group saying that to me, so what's changed, and what. Are the numbers of people are adversely affected by poor sleep or chronic sleep now,

Guy Leschziner:

well, I think a huge amount has changed. You know, I'm of the generation of doctors whereby we were still doing 48 hour shifts, and I think that there was very much a feeling, even in the medical community, that, you know, that was just something that you had to put up with. I guess our understanding of the importance of sleep for pretty much every aspect of our health be that our neurological health, our physical health and our psychological health has dramatically shifted forward, and some of that is related to leaps forward in terms of our medical knowledge, but also in terms of the dissemination of information about the importance of sleep.

Emma Sinclair:

Can you perhaps help us understand the consequences of poor sleep? Because I think most of us could probably, you know, give, give experiences of where they've they've had poor sleep, whether that's that they have, you know, sort of small children at the moment, or, or, you know, as I say, lots of work on or just generally, find it very difficult to sleep anyway. But what, what is the consequences of either not valuing sleep properly or, or, perhaps, you know, those, those perhaps more protracted problems of of poor sleep was, What's it costing us as individuals?

Guy Leschziner:

I think the place to start is is really the fact that sleep is intrinsic to every aspect of our waking life. And so we know that there are many, many housekeeping tasks of the body and the brain that occur during sleep, some of that relates to our brain. And we know that one of the important functions of sleep is in the formation and consolidation of memory. It's also important in terms of the regulation of the brain. So one of the important functions that has received a huge amount of interest over the last few years is the fact that actually in deep sleep, there are channels within our brain that act as a waste disposal system, a system called the glymphatic system, and so in the very deep stages of sleep, that system goes into overdrive, the channels open up by about 60% and remove some proteins and the build up of metabolism that has occurred over the course of the day, and it's really from from this area of research that there has been an increasing interest in the association between sleep and cognitive function, and in particular conditions like Alzheimer's disease. But but sleep is also important for a whole host of other bodily functions, so poor quality sleep results in changes in hormones that put us at risk of weight gain, that increase our insulin resistance, so make us less able to process glucose, essentially driving us into a state that is akin to diabetes. It affects our immune system, and it also affects our mood, our anxiety, our cognitive ability. So really, every, as I said, every aspect of our daily lives is influenced by our sleep

Jean Gomes:

and in the people that you work with and have done these colossal amount of studies where you deeply understand what's going on for them, what's the kind of the biography of the of people who are experiencing poor sleep well, how do their lives look? And I'm thinking particularly for leaders listening to this show, what's the cost to their impact, both personally and professionally?

Guy Leschziner:

I think it's a real mixed bag, because obviously I see individuals with insomnia. I see individuals who have got sleep disorders like obstructive sleep apnea, which is when the airway closes in sleep and disrupts sleep, sometimes up to 100 times an hour. But I also see people with conditions like narcolepsy, who are profoundly sleepy during the day. And so really there are, there are people who sit everywhere on the spectrum from great difficulty staying asleep to difficulty staying awake. You know, by far the commonest conditions in the general population, and this would affect leaders as well, are conditions like insomnia. Chronic insomnia affects about 10% of the adult population, and then there is a group of individuals who simply don't get enough sleep for what they need, which is something that we term inadequate sleep syndrome, or insufficient sleep syndrome. And that's an incredibly common problem. It affects about 20% of the population, and I suspect in people in the higher echelons of running companies, for example, that's probably enriched for for this sort of condition. But it's important to remember that there are other common conditions, like obstructive sleep apnea, which, depending how you define it, can affect up to about 10% of men and about 5% of women. Condition. So these are all relatively common conditions. Some of the rarer conditions that we see are conditions like narcolepsy, but sticking with the common conditions then typically, the biggest cohort is individuals who feel that they are somehow unrefreshed or unreplenished by sleep, and so they wake up feeling extremely tired, fatigued, they understand the impact that it's having on their cognitive abilities, on their abilities to maintain concentration. It may influence their day to day interactions because of emotional dysregulation associated with poor quality sleep, and of course, there is the huge frustration and worry for particularly for those individuals who are aware of the long term implications of poor sleep, about the impact that their sleep is having on their long term health, and also the fact that actually being awake at night, when all you want to do is be asleep, is quite a distressing experience.

Emma Sinclair:

Is there any just a question that's coming to mind at the moment you think about just generally getting in sort of in tune with yourself and thinking about sleep? Is there any general advice that you have for individuals just considering thinking about their own sleep patterns and getting more of an understanding of what's perhaps normal or what's not normal. I know a lot of people obviously have trackers, and guess, you know, actually reading their own how many hours they're getting at night, etc. But for some people, it's not, it's it's not, you know, front and centre of mind working out that this is an important part of essentially, their performance every day. How do you help people just consider the importance of sleep?

Guy Leschziner:

Well, I think the first part of your question, which is sort of, how do you understand your own sleep, is actually really important. Because, you know, what is often put out there is that everybody needs seven and a half to eight and a half hours sleep, or somewhere of that, you know, within that region, it's important to state that, yes, for the that is the average. But you know, by definition, 50% of people sit above the average, and 50% of people sit below the average. And so what is perhaps more important than keeping this sort of golden number of seven and a half to eight hours sleep is understanding your own sleep requirements. Because your own sleep requirement is a function of a number of different things. It's a function of your age, it's a function of the quality of your sleep. So if you've got anything else going on with your sleep, but it's also a function of your genetics. Just to give you an extreme example, you know, we see a few families in whom they only require four hours sleep a night. Now, you know, some people will say, Well, I only need four hours, but they actually need a lot more. But there are genuinely some people who carry particular genes that only need four hours a night's sleep and seem to be very much protected from the ill effects of of limited sleep. So I'm only using this an example. I'm not suggesting people sort of find out whether or not they need four hours a night sleep, but the the, the the, no, I don't Well, I think most people realise this, but so understanding your own sleep requirement is really the first step to making sure that you are getting enough for you. And what I would typically say is, you know, first of all, put your sleep tracker aside. We can get onto sleep trackers in a little while, but you know, essentially what you need to aim for is going to bed at roughly the same time every night, waking up at roughly the same time every morning, waking up feeling unrefreshed, sorry, waking up feeling refreshed, I should say, rather than unrefreshed and feeling like you are able to maintain wakefulness and attention throughout the day, but then be tired enough at night to fall asleep without difficulties, and that's really what you should be aiming for, you know, and without too much deviation between weekdays and the weekend, because we know that regularity of sleep is probably as important as other aspects of sleep as well.

Jean Gomes:

And people who are experiencing hormonal changes, either menopause and Your pause is that something you just have to go through, or is there any way in which you can optimise yourself to sleep better during those, those kind of transitions?

Guy Leschziner:

We We know that obviously in menopause, a lot of women complain of sleep difficulties. You know, hormonal fluctuations are part and parcel of the cocktail of things that are going on that can influence your sleep. And you know, even before menopause, many women complain of sleep disturbance at certain times of their men. Cycle in men, hormonal changes can also have a significant influence, perhaps less on their sleep and more on things like fatigue during the day, which is separate from sleepiness. So fatigue is something that doesn't resolve with sleep and usually goes beyond the boundaries of just mental fatigue, but also encompasses cognitive fatigue and physical fatigue as well. So obviously, for for women, if your sleep is suffering very severely as a result of these hormonal changes, then hormonal manipulation is something that I often encourage in women in the form of HRT. But there are also some drug based and non drug based strategies to try and optimise sleep. If you're not particularly keen to go down that route. I

Emma Sinclair:

was just going to start asking about chamomile tea, but I don't know why that came into my head. I you. I've got another question here, which is that every month, there seems to be new research that's highlighting the diversity of experiences that we have as humans, and it's much broader than we think. So you have a lot of research into synesthesia, and you've brought that to life in your book The man who tasted words, which is wonderful. And if you could bring that to life for people, that would be just very interesting in itself. But I wonder if we could perhaps start to explore those findings with this idea, perhaps, of this predicting brain and the feeling body working together in how we make sense of the world. So this different, a different interpretation of how we make sense this canvas on the world. How are we having a broader experience than we perhaps think we do? Yeah,

Guy Leschziner:

so, so in the man who tasted words, one of the areas that I write about is how we understand the world about us. And you know, it's very easy to think that actually, will we understand the world? Because our eyes bring in visual information, our skin brings in sensory information, our ears, etc, all of these sensors actually simply feed in information to the brain, and that's how the brain experiences the world. But, you know, there are a number of lines of evidence that suggest that this is a gross over simplification of what's happening. You know that actually what is happening is that the brain, each of our brains, has a model of the world as we understand it, so and that model is influenced by our brain structure, our brain function, and also the experiences that we've had to date. And that model is being constantly tweaked. In fact, that's one of the theories as to why we dream, that actually dreaming provides an offline state for us to tweak that model of how we expect the world to be and and you might think, Well, why? Why do we need to do that? Why don't we just take in sensory information on a second by second basis and understand the world in that way. Well, I think there are a number of answers to that. The first is that the nervous system simply doesn't have the bandwidth to take so much information in on a second by second basis. The second thing is, you know, no matter what our senses are telling us, there is always some ambiguity in terms of what that information actually tells us. So, you know, a rather simplistic way of thinking about this is, if you see a little car in front of you, is that a full size car in the distance, or is that a little toy car immediately in front of your face? You know, all of our sensory inputs are liable to ambiguity. And the third big issue, of course, is that you know, when it comes to taking those impulses from the outside world and them reaching the parts of our brain that are where we are conscious, of them, takes about a fifth of a second, which means that we're constantly, kind of living a little bit in the past. Now, in most of life, that doesn't make much difference. But if you are being attacked by a tiger or you're being served a tennis ball by Rafael Nadal, then actually, you know a fifth of a second is quite a long time. And so because of these three issues, that the it's quite useful for the brain to predict what it expects to see or hear or sense, and it's when that there is some conflict between what our senses are telling us and what our brain expects, that that's when things like illusions, for example, happen, and we'll we'll all be very familiar with, you know, pictures that are interpreted in different ways by different people, faces that to some people look like an old woman, to another person looks like a young girl, or, you know, ashes, drawings with these staircases that that are perceived. In different ways by different people, because the model of the world that we have is all slightly different. Our experiences are all slightly different. The way that our brains are wired is all slightly different. So the basis of this means that reality is slightly different for everyone and for individuals with synaesthesia, I think that becomes very, very stark.

Jean Gomes:

So just bring that to life. What are the experiencing these different forms of perception?

Guy Leschziner:

So synaesthesia defines this condition that at its most extreme involves the merging of different sensory modalities. So you know, for example, individuals who will hear sounds but will experience colours with them, or will hear words or think of words and experience tastes. And you know, there are two examples that I give in my book of a man who, you know, when he learnt to read, he was young boy on the tube of London, and he noted that when he read the station names, he would taste certain things. So Tottenham Court Road, for him, since he was a young boy of four or five, has always tasted of bacon and eggs. Bond Street has always tasted of hairspray. And you know, these are constants in his life. So this is not something that he's imagining. This is something that is part of his experience of the world, and that has shaped his world significantly. He I remember him telling me a story of one of his friends going out with a girl called Irene. And for him, Irene tastes of lumpy vomit. And since that time, he has always found the name Irene absolutely horrific. Now it's a somewhat listening back. Well, he is very open about this, and you know, and what we know by studying the brains of synesthetes is that actually this has an underlying basis in the brain that, for example, if you take synesthetes who report seeing colours with particular sounds, then actually when, when you play them sounds, the visual parts of their brain light up on on functional imaging. Now, there is nothing wrong with individuals with synaesthesia. They don't have a medical disorder. In fact, synesthesia, at least milder forms, are actually relatively common. They affect about 3% of the population. But I think that what synesthesia tells us is that it puts in very stark relief the fact that how our brains are connected, how they are wired, how they function, ultimately, very clearly defines how we experience the world. You know, they're the best example of that

Jean Gomes:

given everything you've just been talking about. I'm fascinated in any thoughts you might have about helping us to adapt, to change this new understanding of how the brain constructs reality. Does that help us to think as individuals about how we might learn differently or adapt and change differently?

Guy Leschziner:

Well, I think the starting point for me is the understanding that actually your brain and my brain and Emma's brain might actually see the world in very different ways. Now neither of us are are right or wrong, necessarily, but actually the world might be rather different for us, which, of course, in and of itself, is an important insight, and I think that to some extent, understands why. You know, everybody in our society is increasingly seeming to have different world views, because we are a function of our environment, of our experiences, of our genetics, of our anatomy and of our biochemistry. So so, you know, starting from that point, actually, I think, is really very important, and it perhaps is a way of avoiding conflict and trying to deal with the fact that actually, if you are a leader and people who you work with don't necessarily see the world in the same way that you do, then actually, rather than getting annoyed with them, is trying to understand why They don't, and perhaps actually trying to help them understand the world in the way that you

Jean Gomes:

do. How do we deal with the reality that we actually are in rather than trying to fight it the whole time? How do we how do we actually create a more tolerant environment that sees the benefit of this?

Guy Leschziner:

I guess I would answer that in the form that Well, look, if you have a team, all of whom see things in a slightly different way, actually, that potentially enriches the working environment, the business environment that you're in, because there may be multiple different solutions to a problem. Now the slight difficulty is, is if you seek certainty. Right? Then, obviously that is deeply disconcerting. If you are saying, Well, look, there are multiple versions of reality, and neither one is more correct than another than as a leader, that's quite difficult to deal with. So you need to take those opportunities to accept the fact that there are divergent views and actually utilise that to your advantage, because, you know, sometimes divergent views actually lead you to solutions.

Jean Gomes:

So you explore this idea through the lens of the seven deadly sins, reframing them not as moral failings, but as a function of human biology. And that opens up some big philosophical questions. Doesn't particularly, particularly, you know, when these things elicit severe judgement from us, you know, surely an obese person must be greedy, or someone's always right lacks any humility or self awareness. Which of the Seven Deadly Sins most interest you

Guy Leschziner:

a lot. Well, yeah, I mean, I, you know, on a personal level, gluttony, because I would quite like to be more gluttonous. I love my food. I'm with you. I'm not sure my wife would be particularly keen on lust. So, so I think gluttony definitely, you know, and one of the, one of the key aspects of all of these things, but gluttony in particular, I think, is the multiple strands of evidence that really demonstrate the role of our genetics, our upbringing, even our experiences within our mother's womb, you know, viruses that we are exposed to, the society that we're exposed to, and also the way that our brains process pleasure and reward. You know, all of these different factors, all of which are outside of our control, ultimately influence our appetite and our body weight. Now, of course, that is applicable across all of the seven deadly sins, as I hope I've illustrated, but I think that there is an increased understanding in gluttony in terms of very specific circuits within the brain that influence how we eat and what we eat.

Jean Gomes:

How do you think that understanding changes our judgmental ness of the outcome and also accountability as well? Because there's a balancing act here. You know, we I think we kind of have to override our impulses, and in your work is looking at the extremes of of of these dysfunctions in our human biology. But how does it help the general population? Do you think to understand things

Guy Leschziner:

differently? Well, firstly, understanding what the problems are allows you to identify potential solutions, so that, you know, I mean, that is, that is key, you know, whereas, actually just and I think the question of individual responsibility and morality is very nuanced. But you know, by moving away from that concept of everybody being individually responsible for every aspect of their behaviour, understanding the factors that can be modified by society, modified by groups of individuals, and potentially by the individual themselves, can actually really help in terms of making society a better place. Because ultimately, when we talk about sins, we're talking about behaviours that lead to harm for that individual, or harm for the individuals around them. So so that it's from that starting point is that is the first thing. The second thing is that, actually, I hope that the book that I write engenders some understanding, some empathy, that the fact that you know, at the very least, there are individuals out there who live among us, you know, maybe our friends, our colleagues, our family, in whom they have very little control over certain aspects of their behaviour or their thinking. Now, to some extent, many of the things that I write about in seven deadly sins are factors that influence us all, every single one of us. And so, you know, one has to accept the fact that for every single one of us, we are not in 100% control of everything that we do. At the very least, now that probably round runs counter to many CEOs who like to be in 100% control of everything. But I think, you know, recognising that is really important.

Jean Gomes:

So how do you think about the issues of motivation in a post COVID world, given the research you've been doing?

Guy Leschziner:

Well, you know, we're very eager to accuse people. People of being lazy, of being slothful. And you know, one of the key aspects to energy, to motivation, is that, you know, our levels of energy, our levels of tiredness, our levels of fatigue, come from the brain. They don't come from our bodies, you know, and that's physical fatigue as well as mental fatigue. You know, essentially what we're doing whenever we make a decision is what our brains are asking, is it worth it again? This is a really important survival technique, because, you know, we don't want to be expending energy or calories in the pursuit of something that is not going to provide us benefit. So, so there's a really complex system within the brain that is essentially a thermostat. It's measuring constantly is the energy that I'm going to expend worth the goal that I'm trying to achieve. And you know, as soon as you realise that you you realise that, well, actually, that perhaps explains why different people have different levels of motivation or or enthusiasm for work. Now that's not, you know, it's not a call to arms for the shirkers in our in our society, but I think that that it's important to understand that this is defined by how Brian brains work. Just to give you a really good example, you know, when, when we're ill, when we have a virus, or, you know, something like the flu, we will all experience a lack of motivation. You know, getting up to make a cup of tea will seem like climbing Everest, all we'll want to do is lie in bed and rest, you know, trying to get motivation to do anything, even to turn the channels on the television might be a bit too much and but what we know now is that actually there is a very small set of brain cells within the brain, an area of the brain called the brain stem, that actually coordinate that so in response to having infection or inflammation within Our bodies, that triggers off this small nub of neural tissue that mediates those changes, that changes that those circuits that ask within the brain. Is it worth it? Because, of course, when you're ill, you want to divert resources from running around like a headless chicken and actually diverting them towards healing, towards recuperation. But I think that what that tells us is that actually inflammation, or indeed any kind of change within the body, can result in significant fatigue, and it explains the fatigue that we see, for example, in in COVID, particularly, you know, in long COVID as well, you know, and what we as the medical profession need to try and do is work out some better ways of trying to reconfigure that thermostat to try and get people back from that profound fatigue state

Jean Gomes:

that's fascinating. And again, you know, not not just thinking of COVID, but that idea of, is it worth it? Obviously, this is happening beyond consciousness at a body budget level. But is there a way of being able to intentionally kind of focus that system positively to your to your bet gain? Yeah.

Guy Leschziner:

Well, I mean, I think we do that all the time. You know, if you look at, if you look at athletes who listen to, you know, heavy metal music before they compete, you know, we know that your emotional state is going to have a fundamental impact on that thermostat, those those brain circuits. And you know, we see that in something called hysterical power. So, you know, people who are put in great peril, or in, you know, or in situations where there is very, very potent emotion, who exhibit strength, you know, far beyond what they would be able to show in day to day life. You know, there are stories of young boys lifting cars off people, or, you know, a mother fighting off a bear that's attacking her children. So I think it gives at least an indication of where we can go in order to try and improve matters. If you can manipulate emotional state, and there are a variety of ways in which you can do that, then that will shift the dial on that, is it worth it? Question?

Jean Gomes:

Let's talk about anger in the workplace, because it's often suppressed as a quality. So what are the upsides of anger?

Guy Leschziner:

Well, if you ask, well, what is anger about? Well, Anger is an emotion in response to a thwarted goal you know, be that, be that, you know, a parking spot or a project. It's a very useful emotion in terms of driving you forward. And so to consider anger as being entirely negative is simply incorrect. You know, in the psychology lab, if you take a bunch of subjects and you give them a puzzle, a puzzle that's actually done. Have a solution. You know, some individuals will get angry. Some individuals will show despondency or despair. And if you then give them a second puzzle to do, one that's hard but is actually solvable, then the ones that have generated some anger will actually persist longer and are more likely to get to the solution. So, so, you know, in that context, anger is very useful. There's also this concept of righteous anger. You know, anger has driven huge societal change for the good. So to view anger as an entirely negative emotion is just simply incorrect. I guess anger becomes an issue when it is inappropriate, when it's overly intense, where it can spill over to aggression and occasionally violence, although hopefully that doesn't happen very often in your workplace. But it's about understanding that anger has a role and can actually be harnessed,

Jean Gomes:

but it's often suppressed because it's associated with a lack of safety. We become very sensitised to the idea that everybody should feel safe, but in a real human world, those emotions being suppressed lead to problems that you're not harnessing things. So it's interesting to hear the kind of the balancing of these things.

Guy Leschziner:

Yeah, anger doesn't always equate to aggression or violence. You know, anger is part and parcel of everyday life, and I think understanding that and embracing it for its for its utility, is not necessarily a bad thing.

Emma Sinclair:

So you have a case study that I found particularly interesting, which is envy in your book. And I wondered if you could just talk about what happens when envy becomes quite a dominant experience for for individuals,

Guy Leschziner:

the case that I write about in in the chapter on envy is a woman who experiences what's termed pathological or morbid jealousy. So she at certain intervals, despite having a very normal relationship and being overtly normal from a psychological and psychiatric perspective, experiences an intense feeling that her husband is having an affair, is being unfaithful, and despite all evidence to the contrary, is unable to let go of of that belief. When her family or friends provide with her with evidence to the contrary, she believes it to be a vast conspiracy against her to try and cover up her husband's infidelity. And you know, this is a picture that we do sometimes see in the context of very serious psychiatric conditions. And in fact, you know, in the psychiatric setting, is of great concern, because morbid jealousy often results in in serious violence, in murder, in suicide. And for that particular individual, the my understanding of the case is that actually what's happening is she is occasionally having clusters of epileptic seizures that change her brain biochemistry and result in a delusion that her husband is being unfaithful. And after a little while, as the seizure activity dies down and her brain chemistry normalises, that dissipates again. But you know, that's one example, but we know that envy is, of course, a feature of normal life, that benign envy can actually be a very helpful thing. It's when envy becomes malignant, when it causes damage, particularly when it's related to jealousy, sexual jealousy, that it can become very harmful in society indeed,

Jean Gomes:

and whatever you learn about the the individual that just has complete and utter confidence in themselves. I mean, you list it as pride, but you know, the unable to really see that they're wrong,

Guy Leschziner:

yeah. So, so when it comes to pride, you know, much like envy, where you have positive and negative aspects of envy, you also have positive and negative aspects of pride. You know, in fact, for all of these sins, the reason why they are so ubiquitous, the reason why you know that there's a reason why every single world religion is obsessed with the idea of sin, because we all experience these behaviours. And you have to question, well, why do we all experience these behaviours? And the answer to that is because they all provide some evolutionary advantage. There are clear benefits from being greedy. There are clear benefits from envy. There are benefits from from gluttony. You know you want to eat when you have calorie Okay, maybe not nowadays, but in the days before the industrial society actually eating calories when they were available to you was, of course, a survival benefit. So. And similarly, pride, having self confidence, having self esteem is really important. You know, we see that in the psychology lab, if you take a bunch of students and give you give them a task and you induce pride in them, then they will perform better at that task. The distinction, however, is between pride as a benign form of self esteem and narcissism, which is basically where you have an inflated degree of pride, where you're where you're, essentially your beliefs are not based in reality. And that can be very dangerous indeed, because essentially anything that threatens your own belief, anything that shows you what reality is can be incredibly destabilising and can be psychologically very harmful. The other thing that obviously, narcissism breeds is very difficult interpersonal relationships.

Jean Gomes:

What percentage of the population are narcissists?

Guy Leschziner:

Well, I think that's always difficult to approximate, but we know that it's much more common that we think it is so. So there's a distinction between the narcissistic trait, and we all sit somewhere on that narcissistic trait. In fact, you know, for example, in my profession, surgeons tend to be slightly more narcissistic than than physicians. And you know, again, it illustrates that there are some benefits to these traits, because obviously, if you're sticking a knife in somebody and doing a complex operation, you need to be pretty damn self confident in yourself and unquestioning of your own ability. You know, similarly in the business world, you know, narcissism is often a potentially beneficial quality for people at the very top of organisations, it's when that spills over into harm that it becomes what we would term a narcissistic personality disorder. And that's, you know, at the extreme end of the spectrum of people with narcissistic traits. And you know, personality disorders as a whole, are actually not that uncommon. They affect. You know, a few percent of individuals, of which are substantial proportion, have conditions like narcissistic personality disorder. But I think one of the problems is, is that this term is bandied around a little bit too frequently on social media.

Jean Gomes:

Yeah, it's it's weaponized, isn't it? Terms is for labelling people. What? What do you do to help somebody with that? What? How do you help them to to face reality without falling apart?

Guy Leschziner:

Well, I think the first thing to say about personality disorders is they're not mental illnesses. So, you know, they're not the same thing as depression or anxiety or schizophrenia, for example, these are essentially where certain aspects of our personalities are so extreme that they cause problems, and as such, they are hardwired into our brains, and so they're really rather difficult to treat. You know, there are some psychological therapies that can help. And, you know, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm a neurologist, so I'm not involved in the treatment of these disorders, but I think that, you know, the treatment of personality disorders is highly, highly problematic.

Emma Sinclair:

I think we've got a question as well around the collection in if you said the seven deadly sins, and if you think about it as a piece of work, and you think about what it tells us in terms of humanity, and where you sort of started in the premise of the book, what is it that you think this is, you know, they've come to the the end of the work. What? What what is it that you think it tells us about human humanity, and do you think we need to rethink the values that currently shape our society? Just a big question before you in the end,

Guy Leschziner:

that is, that is a big question. Why not? Very big question. So you know that there are, there are strands of neuroscience and philosophy that actually believe that free will is an illusion that, you know, we have, the illusion that when we make a decision, that that involves choice. But actually, you know, the way that our brains are wired, the way that they function, mean that we would only ever make one decision in any particular set of circumstances. And so, you know, there is this old adage that you know free will is entirely illusory. And you know, there is some evidence that you know there are changes within our brains that occur many seconds before we are consciously aware of making a decision that suggest or imply that actually our brains are making decisions before they enter our conscious awareness, which is very disconcerting. It runs completely opposite to our own experiences of being human beings, you know, to say, well, you know, actually, if I were faced with a choice between vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream, you know, I. I can exhibit free will, but actually, no, I can only choose chocolate ice cream, because that's what my brain is telling me to do. You know, actually, it's a horrendous I mean, this is a bit of a lighthearted example, but, you know, say, you know, you were having an argument with Jean, and you had the choice of walking away or punching him in the face. You know, you would like to think that you have completely free reign over your emotions, and would always, you know, punch him in the face. Well, maybe I don't know about the nature of your relationship. I you know, it's much better than that. Good. Okay, well, you know, so that's a horrendous thought that actually, we don't have any free will. But you know, certainly you know, as I said, at the very least, for every aspect of our behaviour, there are environmental and genetic influences that that affect our brain function and structure and influence our ability to make free choices. You know, for some individuals that I see with significant brain disorders, it's it's very clear that something has happened to their brains that has entirely robbed them of free will, and that's at the extreme. But for all of us, you know, one can argue that if there are factors that influence our behaviour that are outside of our control, then, does that really mean that we all have entirely free will? And I think the answer to that is probably not, which is very, very disconcerting.

Jean Gomes:

Yeah, I was reading a book by Julian Barnes that's just come out, called on changing my mind. He starts it by by questioning the idea that I changed my mind. My mind changed me, flips it on its head.

Guy Leschziner:

You know, in some respects, this is not a new idea. So, you know, there are ancient religious texts, ancient Hindu texts, that argue that our what we see as decisions, are actually obligate decisions. And you know, there are schools of philosophy going back to the ancient Greeks that that suggest that now we have some medical evidence to at least add support to that view.

Jean Gomes:

So, what? Where's your work taking you now? What? What's your next kind of Fronter,

Guy Leschziner:

good question. I think I'm still recovering from the last book, but I have but, but I have some some ideas. You know, I've, I've reached, recently, hit a milestone in terms of birthdays, and I'm becoming increasingly interested in what is happening as we age. So we'll see if anything comes with

Jean Gomes:

that excellent Well, we look forward to that.

Sara Deschamps:

If the conversations we've been having on The Evolving Leader have helped you in any way, please share this episode with your network friends and family. Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get back to the conversation

Jean Gomes:

when we think about, you know, the the overall kind of relationship we have with ourselves as human beings, and how that might change with artificial intelligence having a kind of another, another kind of voice, either, you know, omnipresent or even implant in our minds. What are your thoughts? Or do you have any thoughts about how your work and artificial intelligence might converge.

Guy Leschziner:

Well, I think that that's going to add an additional degree of complexity to the workings of the human mind. First of all, I think that artificial intelligence is going to, I think, provide some very useful ways of studying the brain and actually making sense of the brain. Because, you know what I hope people take away from my work and the work of others is that although we know an awful lot about the functioning of the brain, there's about 100 fold more that we don't know, and so there is still an awful lot to learn. You know, we've only just scratched the surface, and artificial intelligence alongside other leaps forward in technology, I think is going to be fundamental to us understanding the workings of the human brain better, providing models for how the brain works. For example, I guess with regard to things like interfaces, like, you know, the neuralink always comes up in these conversations. We have so much to learn about the functioning of the human brain that I think that at the moment, these kinds of technologies are fairly rudimentary compared to what might be achieved in the future, but I think it's very much going to be guided by technology in all its shapes.

Jean Gomes:

So just to finish off, can we just look at a quick checklist of the things that we can all do to get a better night's sleep that we may may know but we don't do, or we may not really think about. What's your advice?

Guy Leschziner:

So a lot of it is very obvious, and I kind of feel like I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs really. You know, making sure that your bedroom is quiet, that it's dark, that it's not too hot, not too cold, avoiding exposure to bright light late in the evenings. We know that bright light, particularly light at the blue end of the spectrum can cause a long term diminishment of your melatonin, and can actually tweak your circadian rhythm and can push it back, making it difficult to get off to sleep, avoiding alcohol. So some people will say, Well, you know, if I have a drink or two, it'll help me get off to sleep. But actually, by and large, alcohol reduces the quality of your sleep. If you're a smoker or use nicotine, avoiding that for half an hour before you go to bed. And then, you know, going back to regularity, making sure that you're trying to get up and go to bed at the same time that there is not too much variation at the weekends. Because actually, you know, one of the things a lot of people do is they sleep deprive themselves during the week, and then they catch up at the weekends. That has two implications. The first is, if you're very sleep deprived during the week, then no matter how much sleep you'll get at the weekends, will pay back your sleep debt. And the second thing is, because you're kind of going to bed earlier on a on a Saturday night or waking up later on a Sunday morning. Actually, you won't have built up the sleep pressure when you go to bed on a Sunday night, and your Sunday night may be worse, which puts you in an even worse position when you go into work on a Monday morning. So so these are, these are what are termed, and it's a horrible term, sleep hygiene. These are all behaviours that are conducive to good night's sleep, things like caffeine, you know, understanding that caffeine can hang around for a long, long time. And really, if caffeine affects your sleep, you should not really be drinking at any time after lunchtime. But beyond that, I think it's also trying to understand, you know, as I said, your own sleep, not only in terms of what your sleep requirement is, but understanding whether or not there might be anything else going on with your sleep. So the questions that I will typically ask of my patients are, if you want to sleep and you get into bed, are you able to sleep? And if the answer to that is no, then it's likely that you have a degree of insomnia. If you are going to bed and falling asleep very quickly, and you're still sleepy during the day, then the next question to ask yourself is, am I getting enough sleep for me? And if you think you're getting a decent amount of sleep, then it just raises the possibility that you might have something that is disrupting your sleep at night, like sleep apnea, like restless leg syndrome and and other sleep conditions. But if that's not the case, then you're probably burning the candle at both ends, and you're not getting enough sleep for you. So So again, it comes back to this idea of knowing the influences on your own sleep and knowing what is going on with your sleep as well. Everybody is an individual,

Jean Gomes:

and we hear lots of different data about sleep. Is, is it getting better or worse? You know, is the increased education helping people or not,

Guy Leschziner:

I think it's helping a subgroup of individuals. So, you know, actually the data that what is often bandied about is we sleep much less than we did 50 years ago. Actually, the data for that is very inconclusive. And what you have to remember 50 or 100 years ago, not everybody was in a centrally heated home with, you know, a nice hybrid mattress and a feather duvet. So actually, the quality of sleep has probably changed over the last 50 and 100 years as well. So, so I would, I would be a bit circumspect about saying, Well, we're getting less sleep. You know, what's quite clear is there is a subgroup of individuals who are burning the candle at both ends, and sleep education has been really good for them, because it's made them more aware of the importance of sleep, and has made them prioritise sleep a little. But that's a bit of a double edged sword, because for 10% of the population who have insomnia, actually that increased awareness about sleep, they're already very aware of the fact that they can't sleep. And, you know, they're tortured by the fact that they can't sleep. If you compound that with, you know, people like me and people like Matthew Walker telling them of all the negative effects of poor quality sleep, they're going to get even more stressed about it if you compound it with the use of sleep trackers. And I notice you've got a whoop on your on your wrist, then that can be very, very destructive for people who already have a tendency towards insomnia. And the one thing that I would say to people with insomnia is that for the vast majority of individuals with insomnia, those concerns about long term health are probably not applicable because the. Vast majority of people with insomnia actually the yes, they may get a little bit less sleep than normal individuals, but it's not that different, and that actually, the proportion of people with bad insomnia who have a very short sleep time is quite small, and it's only that group of individuals who seem to be at risk of some of those long term harms

Jean Gomes:

excellent Well, as we kind of wrap up, just want to say thank you for a fascinating conversation. We would love to invite you back when you've done some more thinking on the ageing self, and hear about that if you're up

Guy Leschziner:

for it, I'd love to it's been great.

Jean Gomes:

We really recommend our listeners get hold of a copy of guy's recent book. We'll put it in the show notes and any other information that's useful there, but until the next time, remember the world is evolving. Are you i?

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Jean Gomes

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Scott Allender

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