‘Why We Believe’ with Alister McGrath

In this episode of The Evolving Leader, Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are joined by renowned philosopher and theologian Alister McGrath to explore one of the most timeless and urgent questions: Why do we believe? Drawing on insights from his new book, Why We Believe: Finding Meaning in Uncertain Times, McGrath reflects on the nature of belief, the human need for meaning, and how our convictions shape who we are and how we lead.

The conversation takes us from McGrath’s early journey through science and Marxism to his later embrace of faith, to the cultural forces shaping our beliefs today from post-truth politics to techno-optimism. The episode explores how leaders can navigate complexity and uncertainty with grounded beliefs, curiosity, and empathy without succumbing to dogma or paralysis.

Whether you consider yourself a person of faith, reason, or somewhere in between, this episode invites you to reflect more deeply on what sustains you and how those beliefs can help you thrive in a rapidly evolving world.

Referenced during this episode:

Why We Believe: Finding Meaning In Uncertain Times (McGrath, 2025)

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)

The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)

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The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 4:10 Your journey in the search for belief started in science and Marxism – can we start there, what was it about these systems of thought that attracted you to them and how did you begin to question your beliefs in them?
• 6:10 What was the force behind Why we Believe? Why should those without religious convictions read it?
• 8:13 You frame the book with the argument that “to believe is to be human: it underpins our ability to imagine, experiment, relate to others and the world. Can you expand on that?
• 10:08 You start the book with a thought experiment, imagining a world where we only accepted incontestable truths and logic. Can you bring this to life, what would we lose if that was the case?
• 12:58 How should we be thinking about our ability to make judgements in a post-truth world?
• 15:44 How do we hold onto our beliefs but remain curious and empathetic?
• 18:36 I love the concluding thought in the book that living in this vast space of ambiguity and uncertainty is an art, a skill that we have to learn. How do you feel our leaders both new and seasoned can embrace this reality more fully?
• 20:56 When you took a stance against the Dawkins delusion, presumably you received some friction because of that. How did that feel and what did you do in terms of lowering the temperature?
• 23:01 Where else might we be falling into the trap of confusing belief systems with reality?
• 24:49 Once we accept that we’re relying on a belief system (which is something we deeply need to make sense of ourselves within a bigger picture), how does that change how we accept the world?
• 27:16 Is there a practical, apolitical framework that leaders can use to guide their decisions and stay true to a moral agenda?
• 30:27 When people in power hold beliefs that are very different and even harmful to others, it creates fear and anxiety for many. How can people protect their wellbeing in a world where those in charge don’t share their values?
• 33:26 What advice would you give to a young person setting out on their career about how to start thinking about building their own belief system, how to make sense of themselves?
• 36:28 How do you build this from the ground up so that it’s coming from within rather than received?
• 39:29 How important is it for leaders to be re-examining their beliefs on a regular basis as the world changes faster than ever?
• 41:47 Implicit in what you’re saying is the capacity for reflection and doubt which seem to be in scarce supply in many people. What can you teach us about how to do that better?
• 43:37 As leaders we can’t always have concrete answers, we can’t always understand what’s happening, we have ignorance and uncertainty. How do you learn to live with that ambiguity?
• 45:44 Are there practices that you engage in to increase your capacity for uncertainty and is there any advice that you could give to help people find a state of relative relaxation in the uncertainty?
• 48:19 Where are the hard parts of the hard problem for you?
• 49:51 What’s next for you in your research?

Transcript

Jean Gomes: 0:03

What gives your life direction? Is purpose something we create for ourselves, or is it something we discover and how does our understanding of purpose shape the way we lead make decisions and navigate an uncertain world? Today, we're exploring one of the most profound questions that we can ask, what is purpose to help us? We're joined by Alister McGrath, a renowned philosopher, theologian and author whose work bridges science, faith and the human search for meaning. McGrath has spent decades examining how we construct purpose in our lives, whether through philosophy, religion or personal experience. In this conversation, we'll unpack how purpose shapes our identity, our leadership and ability to thrive in an ever changing world. But before we start, take a moment to ask yourself, how do you define your purpose? Is it something you've chosen or something that's been revealed to you along the way? Tune in to an important conversation on The

Scott Allender: 1:03

Hi friends. Welcome to The Evolving Leader, the show born from the belief that we need deeper, more Evolving Leader. and I'm Jean Gomes. How are you feeling on this Friday, my friend?

Jean Gomes: 1:38

I am feeling somewhat odds with myself. I'm very excited about the fact that I'm just about to get on a plane to go to Sydney and spend a week there, doing some work with some accountable and more human leadership to confront the wonderful people over there. But I can't help it. I'm feeling very disorientated about global politics at the moment. We all know what we're talking about, so I think you'd be you'd be crazy not to feel slightly concerned there. I'm flying into a, into a into a tropical storm. Apparently there's one ring over there. So that's a metaphor for I was gonna say. I feel like world's biggest challenges. I'm Scott Allender we're all flying into the eye of a storm and we have no control. How are you feeling Scott? Similar. I'm feeling fatigued. I don't know when this episode's going up, but, you know, we're only six weeks in to the new administration, and it feels like six years. And I, I'm, I'm recognising that it's, it's taking its toll everywhere. I'm feeling that, you know, we're all the show is about, like I just said, deeper, more accountable and more human leadership, and we're not seeing a lot of that in the world. So I feel sad about that, and I feel a little frustrated about that. I'm feeling grateful though I'm gonna get to go on a holiday with my family next week, so we're gonna do a little road trip, and that's something that I'm confident will bring some reconnection and energy, and I'm excited about that. And as always, I'm delighted to be in the studio with you and to be joined by another brilliant guest, because we're joined today by Alistair McGrath, who is emeritus Andreas idreos, Professor of science and religion and director of the Ian Ramsey Centre for science and religion at the University of Oxford. He's well known for his book The Dawkins delusion, which argued against the new Atheism, the view that religion and irrationalism should not be tolerated, popularised by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett, before turning to theology. Alistair was a committed Marxist with a PhD in molecular biophysics, he's just released a new book, why we believe finding meaning in uncertain times, which we're very much enjoying. Alistair, welcome to The Evolving Leader.

Alister McGrath: 3:55

Well, thank you, Scott, really good to be with you.

Jean Gomes: 3:57

Welcome to the show. Alistair, how are you feeling today?

Alister McGrath: 4:00

Yeah, I'm feeling good, but we do live in an age of uncertainty, don't we, so I think it's a very good topic for our show today.

Scott Allender: 4:07

Absolutely. In fact, let's just jump in, because your journey, as I mentioned in the intro, in the search for belief, started in science and Marxism. Can we start there? What was what was it about these systems of thought that attracted you to them? And how did you begin to question your beliefs about them?

Alister McGrath: 4:24

Well, I always loved science. I mean, when I was a young boy, I built a little telescope so I could look at the night sky, and I observed, you know, the craters of the moon and the moons of Jupiter and things like that. And I thought that my future lay in the natural sciences, but I kind of way bought into the narrative that was dominant back in the 1960s early 1970s which was science and religion are completely, completely opposed to each other. And I felt that if I was a scientist, then I had to reject religion. And I again, bought into something very fashionable back in the late 1960s which is Marxism. And Marxism kind of. Political Theory, which really gave me a sense of who I was and the role I could play in the world. So in many ways, it was about giving me a sense of identity and meaning. And actually, we're all looking for that. We all need to feel that we belong somewhere, that there's something we can do. And Marxism gave me that, except that didn't really last, because I began to ask some awkward questions, and began to realise that things weren't quite as straightforward as I thought. For example, I was an atheist back then, and I used to ridicule my religious friends. I'd say, Look, you just believe stuff. I just know what's right. You know which they didn't like very much. But in my more critical moments, I began to realise that actually I believe there was no God, but I couldn't prove that, and therefore, actually I was a believer of a different kind. So the question really was, what sort of faith do you have? Faith in atheism, or faith in in God? And I that really made me wake up. And then I went up to Oxford University to study chemistry, and there I met some incredibly intelligent people who are Christians and active scientists, and really they put me right and helped me to see things in a new way. And that's where I am today, really.

Jean Gomes: 6:10

So what was the force behind "Why We Believe"? Why should those without religious convictions read it?

Alister McGrath: 6:16

Well, thank you, Jean, that's a very good question, and certainly this book was actually pitched to me by a publisher. They said, We need a book like this because we're living in a cultural moment where people are ridiculed belief. But it's clearly not that straightforward. And we thought you might be able to write a book like that, so I did and and here it is. But the basic premise of the book is that whether we like it or not, all of us, whether we are religious or secular, whether we are atheists or Christians or whatever, actually believe stuff. And I think once you begin to see that you do see things in a very different way. So in many ways, the core theme of the book is that it doesn't matter whether you are a religious person or not. We all believe things about what the meaning of life is about who I really am, what I'm meant to be doing, what is good? How do we live a good life? And all of these things are really important to us, but we can't prove they're right. And the point in the book is, look human well being demands we have these beliefs. We can't prove they're true, but that doesn't make them wrong. And so the question really is to figure out what are the best beliefs and then go into life on their basis. So in many ways, it's just accepting a difficult situation, which is, we can't prove the things that really matter. I can prove really shallow things like two and two make four. But you know, that's not going to give you a reason to get up in the morning. We're talking about big questions that really matter to us. And whether you're an atheist or whatever, these lie beyond proof. So in many ways, just saying, let's, let's just get used to this and figure out how we live in this age of uncertainty. But that doesn't mean we are condemned to rambling, getting lost. It means actually that we can, we can come to our own set of ideas of what's right, what's good, and live it out meaningfully, and that's not a problem. So that's the that's the argument of the book in a couple of sentences. Thank you.

Scott Allender: 8:13

Yeah, so you, you talk about how to believe, to believe is to be human, right? This is what you're saying, and it undergirds our ability to imagine and to experiment and to relate to others, and it's central to our sense of self and and I'm just wondering if you could expand on that a little bit, because I think people do tend to categorise themselves into I believe certain things, or I don't believe certain things, right? This is what you're saying. That there's this sort of rational thought. There's this sort of, I'm this very practical person, or I'm a person of faith, but you're suggesting that that's not really true, because to be human means you believe things.

Alister McGrath: 8:50

Well, that's right. I mean, if you want to take a scientific perspective, it's almost if there's a sort of inbuilt desire for belief within us. But whatever the reason is, this is just the way it is. And I think the important thing is to say we can either fight this and say it shouldn't be like this, or we say, Well, look, we just have to go with this. This is who we are. To be human, is to believe. And one of the points I try to make in this book is to actually to to either refuse to believe or refuse to allow other people to believe, is really to dehumanise. That means you are taking away from us some of the key things that really make life bearable and important for us. I think one of the things I talk about in this book, for example, is, you know that I can't prove that certain of my deep moral beliefs are right, like, for example, it's wrong to torture people, but I still think they are right, and they really are important to me, and I'm sure each of you, indeed, the many people listening to this podcast, will be saying, Hey, we know exactly what you mean. We can think of things just like that. And the problem is, that's the human dilemma. We end up believing things we can't prove to be true, but we think they're right. We know in our hearts, maybe not in our heads, but we think they're right, and we know they make a big difference to us. Lives, and they make life livable. And that's the key point we need this existentially if we're going to live good lives.

Jean Gomes: 10:08

It's probably what we you know, we started this conversation about what, well, many of us are feeling right now that those things that we believe to be, you know, what previous generations fought for in the Second World War to establish, you know, a global order is being pulled apart. And so some of the fundamental beliefs about what our identity looks like, and, you know, and so on, those are starting to unravel. And I think this was really interesting is you start the book with a thought experiment where you imagine a world where we we didn't have belief, we only accepted incontestable truths and logic. Can you bring this to life to us? What would we lose if that was the case?

Alister McGrath: 10:46

Well, let's just do this thought experiment and see where it takes us. I want all of you listening just to imagine a world in which you only believe certainties. What would that world look like? Well, let me give you one immediately two and two makes four. Now you can add many more, like that. I'm British, so I would say, here's another certainty. Queen Victoria died in 19 101 so there are two certainties. But I suspect many of you listen to me will be saying, well, you know, they may be certain, but they're not actually very interesting, and they don't make, they don't make any difference to life at all that they may be certain, but they're irrelevant. They don't tell me what the meaning of life is. They don't tell me, you know, who I really am, or what we ought to be aiming for. So let's take experiment just a little stage further. Here's the next question. If we were to say we only are going to believe things that are certain. What does that mean we would have to leave out? Well, here are some things we'd have to live out leave out. One of them is, you know, all people are created equal, which is really important politically. But you can't believe that, because it's not a fact. You know, it's there's no evidence that it's someone saying this is the way we ought to think that actually, you can't prove That's right. Here's another one I mentioned earlier, my own belief that, for example, torture is really awful, and that I think it's awful and we shouldn't be doing it. But that's a belief, you see, and not everyone would agree with that. Sam Harris, for example, the noted new atheist, would say, well, actually, a good case can be made for saying torture is permissible under certain circumstances. I don't agree with him, but he can't prove he's right. I can't prove I'm right. We gotta find a way of living with this. And so the end of this thought experiment really is this conclusion. It's that the things that really matter in life can't be proved. That doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means we can't go the full way. We can go pathway and say, looking good, but we can't get to the the end post. And what I'm trying to say simply is that all of us are in this position. It's just the way things are. We've got to try and come to terms with this and work out how we live with this and where it takes us.

Scott Allender: 12:58

So how should we be thinking about the evaluation of beliefs, or sort of our ability to make judgments in a sort of post truth world, and our and that impacts on our on our leadership? Can you share some thoughts on that?

Alister McGrath: 13:13

Well, I think we do live in the post truth world. I mean, you probably saw the very famous time cover magazine, you know, I think about eight or nine years ago, where the cover question was, is truth dead? You know? And I think that's very powerful, because we do live in a culture which actually talks about my truth. Here's what I want to be true, here's what I think is right, but not truth, meaning something we can all accept is right. And I think what we're seeing here really is two things. Number one is the rise of a kind of individualism which says what I believe to be right is right. And if you don't agree with me and you hate me, you know that sort of thing. But there's another thing going on Alongside this, and I think it's really quite worrying, and it's in effect that the way I feel about things determines the way things are. We're driven by a culture which very often is about here is the way I'd like the world to believe. I would like it if this was true, and therefore it is true. And if you like, we simply make this stuff up. And one of the things I try to say in this book is that these things we make up don't really last for very long, but while they do last there, they really have a very deep impact on people. And you can see many of these things in today's identity politics, where many people listening to this programme will be saying, well, look, I know what these people are saying, but just seems mad to me. And the point I would make is that in 10 years time, probably a lot of people be saying that, and they look back and say, why on earth do we buy into that stuff? It was mad. And I think that's one of the points I'm really trying to make in this book that we we really are looking for the best beliefs possible. What I mean by that is not something that kind of way, um, came into being about 10 years ago, because it's going to go out and 10 years as well, but rather something that's been tried and tested over the years and proved to be satisfactory. and meaningful. That's one of the reasons why, for example, I talk a lot about Christianity in this book, because I find that very, very meaningful. And the key thing is it's been tested over 2000 years, so kind of you figured out where it works. A word doesn't work. So I think what I'm trying to say is that we are in a cultural moment where things seem terribly uncertain, and we really are wondering, what can we hold on to that is reliable and gives us a solid basis in life? And that's why beliefs are so important. My book is called Why We believe. It's a statement, no question, just saying, This is what we have to do, and that means we need to find the best beliefs we can, because we need them to give us identity, security and stability as we journey through this deeply puzzling and rather disturbing world. So

Scott Allender: 15:45

how do we hold on to our beliefs that are meaning making for us with a certain light touch and ongoing curiosity about other people's beliefs and things? I feel like it seems to me that as the world becomes more uncertain, and things are getting more polarised, that people are sort of doubling down, and their beliefs are becoming sort of convictions that almost move them from opinion, or, as you say, the way I would like things to be, to a sort of certainty that this is the way it is. And therefore, when your belief is different than mine, I have all these sort of judgments I hold against you, and we sort of push our push ourselves farther away. We become sort of adversaries. How do we how do we hold on to these important beliefs, but remain curious and empathetic? Well,

Alister McGrath: 16:31

I think you've asked a very good question, because we do live in a really polarised culture at the moment where actually people don't talk to each other very much. They tend to talk at people rather than talk with people. And I think that's one of the things I've discovered, is that my own journey from atheism to Christianity means actually, I mean I'm not an atheist anymore, but I know why I was an atheist, and so actually that gives me a certain degree of cultural empathy with people who hold that belief system. So my own view is that talking to people is really important. First of all, it can very often lead to friendship. But very often it means that you understand them better without necessarily agreeing with them. I think that's one of the point I try to make in this book, we really do need to build these personal bridges, even we don't agree with people, because it lowers the temperature. It kind of way makes our culture less polarised, and that's a real issue, I think, particularly in American politics at the moment. And I think that the issue really is not feeling you have to give up on your own beliefs, but be willing to listen to others explain what you think, and maybe you'll learn something from them. Maybe they'll learn something from you. But the key point, I think, is to try and maintain personal civility, try and see your conversation as enriching, because you're trying to understand somebody else's position better. You don't necessarily think it's right, but you're learning more about it, and that's good. And I think one of the things I've just found is, actually, what I have found is when I take other people seriously, they tend to take me seriously as well. So actually, it's quite a useful exercise. So my guess is that we really need to just just be aware that there's a real temptation to say somebody you're wrong, you're stupid. You know, only a fool would think that actually, quite often, people aren't fools at all, that they thought this through. Maybe they got wrong. But we've got to try and just talk with people and understand where they're coming from, and we may not agree with them, they might agree with us, but actually, it does keep the temperature down, and it does keep a conversation going. That's very important in religion, and increasingly, I'm afraid, in politics as well.

Jean Gomes: 18:36

And I think, I mean, I think that's sentiment around trying to make sense of why people believe what they believe, and treating that seriously, particularly in the time poor environment where and that distance where we're using proxies for talking, you know, social media and so on, is very difficult. I love that the concluding thought in your book that we're living in this vast space of ambiguity and uncertainty. And, you know, be able to do that, to live in that space as a skill, we have to learn. What else can leaders do to try and help us come together around that skill of being able to do what you're talking about?

Alister McGrath: 19:20

I think the first thing we can do is to say we really do need to do this, that actually, if you're a leader, I mean, you really are trying to encourage the people who treat you as being a kind of role model, to say to them, Look, it's good to try and be empathetic with people. Empathy is not saying I agree with you. It's about trying say I want to understand where you're coming from. And I find that very helpful, because, first of all, it means I'm not losing my integrity. I'm genuinely interested in hearing people think, and it may be at some point in future, I'll change my mind on some things because of these very helpful conversations. But what I found is that leadership very often. Is about enabling these conversations to happen. In effect, creating a space in which people feel safe they can talk about things, and maybe they go on into a very different culture environment where they can't talk about things. But really, you know, good leadership is about creating these safe spaces for good conversations that can really help us understand ourselves and also other people. And you know, these things don't just happen. We need people to help these things to take place, and that's where I think leadership becomes very important, because when people feel you're listening to them, that they're understanding where you're coming from, they will give you more back. But also, I think they're more likely to be happy working in this environment because they feel they're being respected and understood. So I think there's a lot of pragmatic and practical wisdom here, which really is very useful to those who are trying to lead us to a better place.

Jean Gomes: 20:57

When you took a stance against the the against the the the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and with the Dawkins delusion, you in effect, were putting a big, you know, sign on your back here, you must have received quite a lot of of friction and attack from that audience. How did that feel, and what did you do to kind of try and do exactly what you're talking about in terms of lowering the temperature?

Alister McGrath: 21:28

Well, it was quite interesting. I mean, I was described as being deluded, a complete idiot, someone who had yet to discover the on switch for my brain.

Scott Allender: 21:39

Jean describes me a lot, so I never would

Alister McGrath: 21:42

do and I just, I just kept on saying, Look, I'm really sorry about this, but I don't think you've understood me. The point I'm making is that you cannot prove your beliefs, and you are using standards to judge me that you don't apply to your own beliefs. Let's make this level playing field. I want you to use the same rational criteria that you're using to judge my religious beliefs to, in effect, evaluate your own atheism. When you do that, you'll find it's not secure at all. You kind of have a spurious certainty in your writings, which is simply not based on the evidence. Now I have to say they didn't really like that very much, but I felt it needed to be said, because I believe it's true, and I think that one of the things I've been terribly pleased about, in fact, very relieved about, is how many atheists have said to me, we're so glad you said that, because we felt like that too, and we felt that atheism has been given a very bad name by these people who, in effect, portrayed as a kind of dogmatic certainty, whereas, in fact, it's a position we adopt having got there, but it's not certain. So I did feel quite relieved about that. But again, it comes back to this point. First of all, we can't be certain of our core beliefs. And secondly, it does help to talk to other people about them as well. It lowers the temperature. It's a very important phrase, but it's a good phrase.

Jean Gomes: 23:01

Where else are you seeing examples of belief systems dressed up as logic and thinking about techno optimism, that you know science will save us and allow us to live forever and and so on. Where else might we be falling into this trap of confusing belief systems with with reality? Well,

Alister McGrath: 23:21

I think we are seeing this in a number of areas. One of them is the movement that's sometimes called the transhumanist movement. What that means, really, is that it's about using technology to augment human capacities, so then, in fact, we can think better, we can perform better and actually live longer as well. And I understand what this is all about, but I do have some concerns, because, first of all, this is going to be very expensive, which means probably future trans humans will begin by being American. But secondly, I think more importantly, very often, people will say we need some kind of intellectual rebooting to be able to cope with these problems we are facing. And my immediate question was, who's going to be doing this rebooting? Because, in effect, means that whoever's doing the programming will programme us to be like them. So I think there's a real issue here of power and democratic accountability here. So I think very often we are seduced by very simple responses to our problems and people, because very often they're desperate, will will buy into ways of thinking that actually probably deep down in their hearts they know aren't really right, but they do like what they promise so they're happy to go along with them for a while. And I'm just really saying that we have to just face up to the fact of human limitations and learn to live and work with this. And the key point I make throughout this book is it can be done, and that's a really positive message, which I think I want people to hear.

Scott Allender: 24:49

So once we accept that we're relying on a belief system, something that we deeply need to make sense of ourselves and within the bigger picture, how does that. Uh, influence or change how we accept the world around us. Well,

Alister McGrath: 25:05

I think that there are two things really that it's good to bring out here. One is to recognise we're never going to be able to completely understand our world, and that there are limits to what we're going to be able to find out about it. And I think that that's a humbling thought, but I think it's also quite a realistic thought, science has its limits. There's certain things that science can't really help us with very much. Very good on telling us how things function is very good in helping us to change things in certain ways, but it doesn't answer questions about meaning or value, like what's the meaning of life or what is good? And the second point, which I think is really quite an important one is to is to realise that the same group of people, all looking at the same evidence will come to different conclusions. And it's not because they're stupid. It's because the evidence very often is ambivalent and ambiguous. In other words, the evidence isn't compelling. It doesn't force us to any particular conclusion. There's an Australian atheist philosopher called Graham oppy who I really enjoy reading, and one of the points he makes is that it doesn't matter whether you're a religious believer or an atheist or an agnostic. You know each of you can bring forward reasons for thinking you're right, but none of those reasons are absolutely persuasive. They may point in certain directions, but they don't take you all the way. And operator says, Look, I'm an atheist, but I know I can't prove That's right. So again, it just brings us face to face with reality, which is basically we just can't prove the key things that really matter. So either we delude ourselves and say, Yes, we can, there's certainties, and anybody who disagrees with me is an idiot, or else you say, actually, there's a real problem here, and it does affect the way in which we think about our world and the way in which we relate to other people. And what I try and make in this book is actually it is good to acknowledge the limits of human thought processes, and in effect, say there are certain things we can't answer definitively, but we can give partial answers that we think are right, and we can, we can live with those. So if you like, it's almost like a self help guide to living in a very messy and complex world. As

Jean Gomes: 27:17

you know, we stand at the moment and we don't know where this is going to go, because it's early days, a number of these core tenants about what it means to be human in the world, you know, in the developed world, what we can expect in terms of fairness and the way that we were treated, The in the progress we're making in helping disadvantaged groups to feel more safe and have equal rights and so on seems to be slipping away. Seems to be pulling back, and we have a situation which is unprecedented. So if you were sitting with a group of leaders here who are kind of asking themselves, what's the right thing to do? How do we balance this shift with the kind of moral agenda? How do we make sure that we we don't disadvantage the collective good of the organisation by compromising ourselves in in these ways? Potentially, because it's very easy, some organisations are already a knee jerk reaction to dismantling things, and some might go much, much further in the next year. What would you advise them how to think this through? What's the kind of framework, a belief framework that is kind of a political to help them do this? Well, I think

Alister McGrath: 28:36

this is a really good question. It's also, if I say so, a very difficult question, because, you know, we really are in a bit of a mess at the moment. But here's one point I think that we do need to feed into the conversation, and it's this, which actually is, if you, if you respect people and try to make their situations better, they are less likely to see as an enemy and plot against you. I think that one of the things I've noticed going back to 911 or also to look at some of the things that have been happening in various parts of the world where there are serious ethnic tensions. Very often, the issue is these guys hate us. We need to defend ourselves, otherwise they're going to get rid of us, or these guys just don't respect us. We need to teach them how to respect us, and we use violence to do that. And I think you're asking some very important questions, for example, about USAID and things like that. You know, because I think one of the rationales behind that programme, which in my view, was a very good programme, was that by making the world more settled place, by taking people's grievances and concerns seriously, you're reducing tensions. And when you reduce tensions, there's less likely to be some kind of conflict. So I am slightly worried that as people get and nations get very, very defensive and inward looking, it does very often mean that it creates tensions because you start disregarding other people groups or not taking them seriously. So I do think we are. Are in a difficult cultural moment, and I don't have any easy answers to the very good question you've asked, other than to say we need to find some way of ensuring that those who are advantaged try and help those who are disadvantaged. A, because that's just a good thing to do, but B, because it might actually genuinely reduce tensions and make the world a safer place. I know there

Scott Allender: 30:28

are no easy answers, but I want to stay with this a little longer, actually, because, you know, we've been talking about our different beliefs, and we can't prove our beliefs and we and the acceptance of the world around us and the differences that we have in the empathy, but when people who have significantly different beliefs than we do wield power over big groups of people, that's causing, obviously, a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear for many, many groups of people. What thoughts do you have on how people can maintain their well being, when they might live in a world where those in power have very different beliefs than they do, and that's causing all of this sort of inter angst and turmoil.

Alister McGrath: 31:12

Well, again, that's a very good question, and certainly I can resonate with it. Looking at the way things are going at the moment, I think that there are two things I'd want to say. One is that those who are in power need to watch their rhetoric. I'm not thinking of any particular people here, but I'm just saying when you start using language which is about which implies aggression, which implies you're going to how shall I do wipe somebody out, something like that, that that you may be using that, that rhetoric in a rather playful way, but it might not seem like that to other people, who might say, these guys are out to get us and really become frightened. When you'll get frightened, they start reacting in certain ways. And that's not really very, very good. But I think the classic example. Response to this question is that when people feel uneasy, threatened and so on, that actually very often what they do is they'll aggregate together. That in effect, one of the reasons why communities form is they feel threatened, and therefore the safety in numbers, people will very often gather together. And in the United States, very often that means you have no integration. People, in effect, will naturally gather together in groups of ethnicity or political beliefs. And actually, this means they separate from the mainstream, rather than being part of it. And so I understand entirely why this is happening. We need these these groups, to give us a sense of security and identity. But the danger is we define ourselves over and against everybody else, ie making them an enemy. What we really need to try and do is find some way of rethinking this. We're we're, in effect, gathering together people who who help us feel safe. But that doesn't stop us from doing something positive in the community as a whole. I think one of my own concerns over the last 10 years has just been to note how very often the vision that we had, certainly here in Great Britain, I think you had new United States as well, some extent of of an integrated society. I think that's falling to bits. I just don't think people see that as either being possible or necessarily a good thing to do. So I think your question is a very apposite one for our cultural moment.

Jean Gomes: 33:26

So I'm a young listener, and I'm trying to build some sort of philosophical framework to help me, you know, think about, you know, how I face the future, how I face this more uncertain future? What advice would you give a younger person setting out on their career, about how to start thinking about building their own belief system, how to make sense of themselves in this environment?

Alister McGrath: 33:58

I think what you need to do is to realise how important it is for your own flourishing and your own mental health, to have a good sense of who you are, what it is you're being, what is you feel called to do, and a very strong sense, I think, of personal efficacy. This is something I'm able to do. Is a book by a psychologist called Roy Baumeister called meanings of life. And he's not answering the question, what's the meaning of life? He's rather saying, here are the key things you need to think about to get a viable way of looking at the world that will keep you going. And these key things, you know, who am I really do? I really matter. Can I make a difference? And what am I meant to be doing. You're just saying, really, go try and find answers to those questions. So I think in talking to this hypothetical person, you've invited me to think about, I would say, bear in mind those four questions. Who are you really? Do you really matter? What might you be able to do? Can you make a difference? And also, what? You sense your purposes, because those are key questions to ask. But I'm going to make two more points, which I think might be helpful to you. One is that, as I found, I'm sure many others have found as well, very often, the way you start out changes over time. You learn, you interact with other people. Very often they help you. They they sharpen your edges, they give you added reflection on the questions you were thinking about. So you may find that actually you change as a person as you grow older, basically because you begin to realise perhaps you were a little bit idealistic when you were young. But you know, we're all like that, so it's not a problem. And the other thing I would say is that you need those beliefs to keep you going. It's simple as that, if you have no beliefs. It does not make you a happy person. That means you are unanchored. You don't have a basis, a sort of a safe place to go to. I think that's one of the key things I want to say, that we all need these safe, safe places where are in effect, were were you feel you belong, you feel you can grow, because when you feel safe, then you're going to start becoming a better person. It's all about this need to feel safe, and that's why beliefs can play a very important role. Because in effect, it will say, Well, look, even though I know I'm not very intelligent and not very gifted, I can still make a difference. I know I can, so I'm going to try and do something and look for people who will help me to do that. So that's the sort of advice I'd like to give to anybody who's really thinking about those very important questions you've mentioned. I

Jean Gomes: 36:28

love that, and I also want to just probe a little bit further in this sense of we are, especially younger generations, are inundated on things that they are told to believe or told you know that represent a good life, and some of them is incredibly superficial or wrong and and so on. So how do you how do you build this from the ground up, so that it's coming from within, rather than you know? It received? Well, again,

Alister McGrath: 36:56

that's a good question. I think it's become particularly pertinent since the rise of social media. The reason I make that point is that very often people are very, very good at absorbing ideas from their environment. In effect, thinking these must be right, because so many influential people hold them, and you get caught up in a kind of bubble of people who believe these things, and you don't get exposed to alternatives, and you begin to think anybody who thinks differently is mad or bad or sad. I think one of the things I would like to say is there is this real danger that you simply come like a chameleon, that you actually change your colour, change your nature, in response to whatever ways of thinking seem to be dominant in either the culture or in your immediate social environment. And I think I just have to say to you that this has always been a problem. It's got much worse in the last two decades because of the rise of social media, which is very, very good at giving you short form arguments which without any depth or detail, and it very often means you just aren't getting the full picture. So what I would say to someone in this position is to say, Look, do be sceptical. Do say, I know everybody's saying this, but that doesn't make it right. Let me just maybe I'll go along with this, but I'm going to put a question mark against this in my mind. And secondly, bear in mind that most people you talk to who are older will tell you a story about I used to think this, but now I think this, and it's not because they're idiots. It's because they have learned as they've gone along that things weren't quite as simple as they'd thought when they were younger, and have tried to adapt to this. So, you know, think things through yourself. Decide what's right, but always just say, but I'm keeping this question open, and I realise there are others who might think differently, and maybe they're not mad, maybe they might be right, but that's a conversation for the future. For the moment, I'll believe what I believe, but do it graciously, respectfully and also with this sense this might not be right. But for the moment, I'm going to assume it is

Sara Deschamps: 39:04

evolving leader. Friends. If you're curious to get more insights directly from our hosts, consider ordering Jean's book, Leading in a non linear world, which contains a wealth of research backed insights on how to see and solve our greatest challenges, as well as Scott's book, The Enneagram of emotional intelligence, which can help you unlock the power of self awareness sustainably in every dimension of your life.

Scott Allender: 39:29

How important is it for leaders to be re examining their beliefs on a regular basis as the world changes faster than ever? Because, you know, there's stories after stories of people who are quite successful with a certain leadership philosophy in a certain organisation, and they then try to bring that with them into the new organisation and a different set of realities, and that whatever their leadership belief or philosophy is isn't working right. And instead of re examining sometimes, they try to just double down on it and force it to work right. So how important as the world changes, how do we encourage people to step back and re examine beliefs?

Alister McGrath: 40:05

Well, people very often talk about paradigm shift, don't they? That phrase that Thomas Kuhn introduced, which is basically, you know, really radically rethinking this might have been okay once it's not okay anymore. I think I would have say we have to do this. The difficulty is known when knowing when things actually change so radically, because most people, in effect, tend to change slowly and adjusting one thing at a time. But I do think at the moment, we're in a cultural moment where things are changing very, very quickly, and that may mean that the way we do politics, to give you one example, may change as a result. I think leaders can, in effect, play two very important roles here. One is talking about these issues. You know, when I, you know, began to do it this way, it worked very, very well. I'm now beginning to wonder about this, because of this, this and this. And therefore I have to say that this was right then, but it might not be right, not now. And the second thing is to, in effect, talk about how you've changed your mind present yourself not as a doubling down leader, but as a leader who, in effect, has said, I've had to think about this. I've had to rethink things. And actually, that might give others permission to rethink things as well, because in a rapidly changing situation, you know, you very often have to change. I remember a very famous quote from John Maynard Keynes, a well known British economist of an earlier generation. He said, Look, when the facts change, I change my mind. And he's certainly making the point that actually he'd been justified in his beliefs once, but when things change, then you're not justified anymore. You gotta do a bit of rethinking here.

Jean Gomes: 41:47

I mean implicit in everything that you're saying is the capacity for reflection, for doubt, self doubt, constructive doubt, which seems to be in scarce supply, in many people. I'm just wondering, because, I mean, this is your job. I mean you spend your days thinking and questioning your own thoughts. What can you teach us about how to do that better, particularly when people are getting stuck and they don't give time for reflection. I

Alister McGrath: 42:21

think one of the problems here is that people very often see changing their mind as a sign of weakness. I think what you have to do is to say, look, the good leader is someone who, in effect, is sufficiently humble and intelligent to recognise that actually change is needed and that this is not about weakness on my part. It actually is about wisdom and discernment and strength in being willing to say we need to change this. So I think that's one thing that we do need to say, that actually very often, a good leader is someone who quite often will recognise that despite what everybody else is saying, there seems to be a need to move in a different direction. And I think that one of the reasons why I value leaders so much is a very often that they are they're very exposed. You know what I mean? That they feel that they are quite vulnerable. They're taking a risk and saying, I really do think we need to do this. And sometimes they're wrong, I know, but it's good that they are saying we need to rethink this and just check out whether this really is the best way to keep on doing this. And I respect that, and I think that actually one of the problems I have is that very this is a sort of innate human tendency to keep things going the way they are. And maybe it worked in the past, but I'm not sure it's working now.

Jean Gomes: 43:37

So Alister, if you're if you're listening to the show, there is a myriad of things there where we we can't have concrete answers, we can't understand what's happening. We can't know we have ignorance. We have uncertainty. How do you live with that? How do you learn to live with that ambiguity? I

Alister McGrath: 43:59

think the first thing you say is, this is just the way it is. If I pretend otherwise, I'm simply deluding myself. But then I take a much more positive outline approach. What I will do is to say there are certain things I can say with complete integrity. I really do believe that they make sense to me, that they have good the good reasons for them, and they really make a difference to me. And therefore I would invite people to think, look, check out the things you really feel sure about and the difference they make to you. And I quote The Italian physicist, Carlo Rovelli, was a very interesting writer, and he he's talking about this, this idea of uncertainty. He's saying actually uncertainty applies to most things, and we just got to use to get used to voyaging in this ocean of uncertainty. And he says, Look, it can be done. And what we need, I think, is more people who've learned how to do this to say it can be done. And here is how I have done this. So I don't want people. Listening to this podcast to be frightened by this. It's just in effect the way things are. I can tell you that it works, that you can make this work. It's really about checking things out. Am I really happy about the set of beliefs? Are there other people can help me develop this? And even though I recognise I can't prove they're right. They're good enough to keep me going. I'm going, therefore, to commit myself to them, to live my life on the basis of these beliefs. I may be wrong, but listen, I've got to live my life on the basis of something, and that's the key point. You can't just disengage. You've got to, in effect, find your way to a position that you think works for you, and then take that ahead and see where it takes you.

Scott Allender: 45:44

Accepting uncertainty can cause us a lot of metabolic output, right? Like our brains tend to, only you know, feel relaxed when they construct a feeling of certainty, which is why it's so hard to sit in uncertainty. Are there practices that you engage in to sort of increase your capacity for uncertainty and sort of updating these beliefs, as we talked about and you know, kind of navigating the complexity of the rapid speed of change? Is there? Is there any advice you would give in terms of helping people find a state of relative relaxation in the uncertainty, right?

Alister McGrath: 46:26

Well, let me give you two answers. I think people listening to you will will say those are really good questions. Here are two things I think might be helpful. One is something I mentioned earlier, which actually it's very helpful to get people who feel the same way as you together and just talk about this. How do you cope with this? What? What do you find helpful? Because A, it helps to realise you're not on your own. And B, what they say might actually be helpful. So, you know, it's really, if you like, just a sense of solidarity. You know, we aren't on our own here, maybe what other people think might be helpful, but it's good to know there are other people who recognise this as well. But the thing, the second thing is perhaps more positive, it's simply to recognise that, yes, if we can't be certain about things that can be quite threatening, it can be quite unsettling. But that doesn't mean we're kind of way jumping into the unknown. I mean, most people who commit themselves to a religious like me, or political or economic way of thinking will have thought it through very carefully. Say, look, this is the best I can do, and feel I'm doing this with complete integrity, even though I know I can't actually prove it's right. But you know, I think if I'm put like this, the paradox is realising that you believe stuff actually reduces the tension. Because the whole thing about belief is it gives you room for uncertainty. It allows you to cope with that if, if you insist on on certainty, and then you you kind of experience an uncertain world, you are going to be anxious. You are going to be in a difficult place. So in many ways, what I'm saying is the approach, I'm sort of, way suggesting we think about actually, is much more robust in enabling you to cope with an uncertain world than believing things with certainty and constantly feeling challenged by the obvious dissonance of the world which doesn't really fit the theory you've got.

Jean Gomes: 48:20

You're kind of creating a framework in which uncertainty can sit and that gives you that sense of, you know, these are the beliefs I have. This is, yeah, so that that kind of is a choice as much as anything else, which is big part of making you feel like you're in control. You're actively engaging in it. When, when you were writing the book, where were you? Where did you find the great struggle in doing that? Where are the hard parts of the hard problem for you?

Alister McGrath: 48:48

I think there were several problems. One was because, although I thought about these questions, I wasn't quite sure who would read the book, and therefore I had to kind of a pretend I'd have lots of different kinds of readers, and make sure I answered all their questions. So the book actually is a little bit disjointed the part, because I'm working with what I think might be quite a wide readership. But I wrote the book with some enthusiasm, because I felt, you know, this is a book that is really about my own quest for things and sort of some of the wisdom I've acquired over the years, but it's really just saying, Look, actually, I think we can deal with this, and maybe, maybe the things I've experienced, the things I've learned, might help you as well. So that's why, in one sense, this book's bit like a self help book, but writing it was good for me because it forced me to think things through and forced me to give better answers to questions than I had beforehand. So actually, it was quite a, quite a cathartic book. It really forced me to think things through more rigorously than I might otherwise have done. I think that was good for me.

Jean Gomes: 49:51

What's next for you? Alistair, in your research,

Alister McGrath: 49:55

the next book, which I've, I've more or less completed, is quite different. Different. It's about CS Lewis on science and religion. Brings together two things I really like. One is CS Lewis, because he's an Oxford man. And secondly, I'm very interested in science and religion, so bringing these two things together, that worked very well. I enjoyed writing that book,

Jean Gomes: 50:14

wonderful. Well, I love the book. I love why we believe. It made me think I've still, I'm going to, there's a couple of chapters where I'm going to reread them on the flight over to Sydney as well, because there it is. It's loaded with your life's work. Even though it's a small book, it's, it is very, very powerful. So I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy to help them face the current situation that we're in and generate some some framework for thinking about the future. So thank you, Alistair.

Alister McGrath: 50:50

Well thanks for a great conversation. I've really enjoyed it, and I I just want to encourage you to guys and generating effective leadership for the next generation, because we really do need it.

Scott Allender: 51:00

All right, friends do pick up a copy of Alistair's book straight away, and until next time, remember the world is evolving. Are you?