The Evolving Leader

The Enneagram in Real Life with Stephanie Barron Hall

• Stephanie Barron Hall • Season 7

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In this bonus episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, host Scott Allender talks to Enneagram Practitioner, Leadership Consultant, and Author Stephanie Barron Hall. During the episode, Stephanie explains what the Enneagram is, how people new to the Enneagram might approach it and how it can be applied to teams in the workplace. 

Stephanie is the author of 'Enneagram In Real Life - Find Your Type and Take Steps Toward Growth'


Further reading from Stephanie Barron Hall:

Get your copy of Enneagram in Real Life https://www.ninetypes.co/enneagram-in-real-life

Find Your Enneagram Type: https://www.ninetypes.co/find-your-enneagram-type 

Listen to the Enneagram in Real Life Podcast: https://www.enneagramirl.com/ 

Learn more about team sessions: https://www.ninetypes.co/

 

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)

The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)


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LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast

Twitter               @Evolving_Leader

YouTube           @evolvingleader

Bluesky          @evolvingleader.bsky.social

 

The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

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Scott Allender:

Hi, folks, welcome to The Evolving Leader the show born from the belief that we need deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to confront the world's biggest challenges. I'm Scott Allender, and if you're new to the show, welcome. We're really appreciate that you're here. And if you're a regular listener, thank you. We are so grateful for your continued support. And if you're a regular listener, then you'll know that part of our aim in helping all of us to create deeper accountability and more human leadership is found through helping us all to build a more radical self awareness and a truer, more empathetic understanding of others. How we make sense of ourselves and the world around us is a cornerstone of our leadership, both for good or for bad. And long time, listeners of the show will know that an approach that I like to take for better understanding myself and other people is through the Enneagram. Back in season one, we had best selling Enneagram author Ian Morgan Cron on the show, and then when my book, The Enneagram of emotional intelligence came out two years ago. We devoted a whole episode to that. So if you're an Enneagram curious human, then you're in the right place. If you're not, then please don't turn off the dial. Stay open and stay with us. Lean In, because I think you're going to get some really keen insights today from wherever you are on your self awareness journey. Because today we are joined by Enneagram, teacher, coach, speaker, Stephanie Barron Hall. Stephanie draws from her education in psychology and post graduate work in organisational communications to create a unique and accessible approach to working with Enneagram in organisations, and she's just released a book that I've described as the new go to book on the Enneagram, and I stand by that assertions. It's called the Enneagram in real life, and she hosts a podcast by the same name, and she also has like a kajillion followers on her instagram at nine types co Steph, welcome to The Evolving Leader.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Thanks so much for having me.

Scott Allender:

How are you feeling today?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Good, yeah, yeah,

Scott Allender:

you just got over an illness, but you're feeling good,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

yeah. And I, uh, rushed here because morning rush hour traffic. I was like, hustling in, you know, trying to make it on time. So

Scott Allender:

wow, thanks for being here, I'm gonna jump into help our audience get to know you a little bit better. Say we're at a dinner party and and your answer might help me when I get this question and somebody comes up to you and says, So I hear you've written a book about what at the Enneagram, what is this thing you've done? What do you tell them? How do you get into that conversation?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Um, first of all, I I'm like, yes, the Enneagram. Yeah, because no, no coffee enemas involved here, though, I always like to say the Enneagram is a motivation based personality framework oriented around nine core types. And what I really like about it is that it's very growth oriented, so it really helps us to understand not only where we are, but kind of where we're going and where we've been. And so that's kind of my elevator pitch, if you will.

Scott Allender:

Yeah. How did you discover it?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Actually, so I've always been interested in personality, everything, but the Enneagram in particular. My husband heard about on a podcast, and he was like, Oh, you would probably like this. And he handed me his ready results. So for our listeners, the ready is the Rizzo Hudson Enneagram Type Indicator, and it is a pretty gold standard assessment that people have used for a very long time, and it's about $12 so he handed me the results from that, and I was like, cool, you know, great. I'm gonna, like, set that aside for now. Didn't really listen. And then a few months later, my older sister was like, you have to take the Enneagram. So I was like, Oh, fine, because you have to do what older sisters say. And so I took it, and I saw the achiever pop up on the screen. And I was like, Yes, I won. And very quickly I started reading more about what that actually meant, and I was like, oh, no, I do not like this. And it kind of took me on this whole journey.

Scott Allender:

What didn't you like? Well, two

Stephanie Barron Hall:

things that kind of popped out right away. One was that I. The whole chameleon esque aspect of the type three, which is sometimes called the achiever, the part about moving and shifting, how you show up depending on who you're with. And it was something that I had recently started noticing about myself and I didn't like, but I also thought people can't tell and reading about it on the page, I was like, Oh my gosh, people can see me. And that was really challenging, like feeling like people can see this thing that I'm doing and that I wasn't even aware that I was doing. And so I was kind of mortified by that, and then the second piece was that I was out of touch with my emotions. And my whole life, I had been told, You're so sensitive, You're too sensitive. So I didn't think that I was out of touch with my emotions, but very quickly I started recognising, oh no, I totally am. And being sensitive is not the same as being able to like, access and process emotions appropriately. So those kind of stood out to me, and that took me on this whole path.

Scott Allender:

So I want to talk more about that path, because I'm really curious how this journey has changed. You both the difficult realities that you've started to describe, as well as the sort of things that are, hopefully are a little bit sunnier, as well as part of the whole comprehensive journey. But before we do that, because this is not a official Enneagram podcast, right? So maybe it'd be good if we could do a whistle stop tour. You mentioned it's a motivation based system. I've talked to talked about this a bit on the show before, but I'd love to just kind of have you do a master class in like a minute of kind of like the nine types. What do they mean? Why should we care? Anything you want to share there? Yeah. So

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I'll start um, with why we should care. And I think that this part is really important. I think a lot of us are looking for some understanding of who we are, some sense of self awareness. I think especially people who listen to this podcast, are looking for that. And then the other kind of group that I see looking for that are the people that I work with. I work with actually a lot of like for Fortune 500 companies, and I see a lot of leaders who are looking for some reason or some way to do things differently, because they're like, it's just not clicking with people how I'm going about this. And so that's why I like the Enneagram, because part of the piece about being motivation based is if you learn it at work, you can use it at home, too, and vice versa. So it's not like something like disc, which is a great tool, but it's more situational, so the context matters a lot more. It's just it has, like the underlying motivation, and you can kind of always track with that. So I know this is kind of weird, but in Enneagram circles, we like to start with type eight. So

Scott Allender:

I know why we do that. Why do we do that stuff? Yeah, so

Stephanie Barron Hall:

the Enneagram is full of all these different complexities. So it seems like, oh, just nine numbers. How hard could that be? But actually, there's a lot more to it, and one of the kind of baseline ways we look at the types is through the lens of intelligence centres, meaning we all have different centres of intelligence where we have like, kind of this innate attention and and focus. And so we have three types, and all of them have, like, an aversive emotion that is underpinning them. So people always ask, why are the emotions negative? And it's like, well, it's something that we're all trying to escape in some, some sort of way. So with the exception of type eight, but I'll come back to that. So the body types are eight, nine and one, and they have underlying anger that they want to kind of issue. Eights are really okay with it. They feel fine about it. But the other two types, nine and one, want to suppress it or repress it, just find a way to not be angry. Two, three and four have an underlying sadness, and these are the heart types, and they are really focused more on image and identity and those sorts of questions, like, who am I? Is the big question for the heart types. And then five, six and seven are the head types, or the mind types, and they're focused on stability and safety, and they have an underlying fear, and so they're using analysis and strategy to make sure that they don't feel afraid.

Scott Allender:

And we overuse one of those centres, right? So we talk a lot of this show, so I'm pause before we go into the nine types, because we talk a lot on the show about one of the ways. We build self awareness to see and solve our greatest challenges is to pay more attention to what's happening in our body, to pay more attention to what our emotions are telling us why they're constructed in the first place, and what information they're giving us, and then to integrate the sort of prefrontal cortex and the logic and the rationale, and it's all three of those things working in harmony that actually give us so much insights and even speak into our well being and how we like experience our lives personally as well. So in those sort of three centres as a starting place, if you heard Steph describe them at that high level, you know, kind of think about which one of those maybe you sit in as a natural place, because we doesn't mean that we are skilled in using that all the time, right? It's like we prefer that centre. We try to operate life from that centre, but sometimes we overuse that centre till it becomes ineffective. What would you say about that?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, I think that's very true. Is that we're always overusing one of them, and that that's when it becomes dysfunctional. And so the whole idea of the Enneagram is not to change your type or change your centre or any of that. It's to bring them all into balance. And so sometimes what I see is that people have these really strong judgments about their type or their centre or whatever. And you know, it's because they're like, oh, that's just gross. Like, I see that all the time, and I hate it, you know? And it's useful, I think, for us to observe that, but also to recognise it's just about balance. It's not about getting rid of that.

Scott Allender:

I so those are three centres. Now let's go ahead and do the sort of nine sort of ways that people are responding,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

sure, so eights are motivated by this. Need to be against. And it's not against to be contrarian. It's against to say, like, I am tough, I'm strong. You can't overtake me, you can't overpower me. And they're avoiding any semblance of vulnerability or weakness. And so they really have this tough exterior. Now, if you know an eight they're not just jerks all the time. They have a lot of kindness, and you know these other qualities beneath the surface, but they lead with that tough decisiveness and seem to not really care much about what other people think. And so they're very driven and dynamic people. Then we have nines who are motivated by the need to be at peace internally and externally. And this is really about creating a calm, comfortable space for themselves, where they just feel unflappable. They don't want anyone to be able to throw them off. And they're really avoiding being the cause of discord or disconnection, so they like to kind of take everything down a notch. Sometimes they feel like, well, everyone gets way too worked up about things. You know, I it would be better if everyone would just kind of relax a little bit. And they tend to go along with things and have a harder time figuring out, what do I actually want, or what do I actually think about this, because they're going along with what everyone else is saying, because that's how they can kind of survive in a calm space. And then ones are motivated by this need to be good and right and correct, and really they're not. It's not about being good at things. It's about being morally and ethically good. And they have this strict moral code and these strong kind of containers that they create for themselves, a lot of rigidity, because that's what they believe will keep them from, you know, colouring outside the lines, so to speak. And so they're avoiding being corrupt or being bad or being wrong, and especially being wrong and being the last to know. So they always have this inner critic who says, hey, you know, you probably screwed that up along the way there. It's just always kind of, kind of saying that in their minds, yeah,

Scott Allender:

yeah. So that's, those are the three body types. So they're all sharing a central issue with a sort of, often unconscious experience of anger, and sometimes that anger is rooted in matters of fairness and justice and rightness in the world, but that's just within that centre. Those are three sort of primary different ways that those types are trying to navigate. And kind of, as you say, I think move away from that sort of uncomfortable emotion or that experience, yeah, yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

yeah. And then we have the heart types. So type twos are motivated by this need to be loved and wanted and needed, and that really comes out in creating positive relational rapport with other people, that's kind of their primary focus, and so they kind of believe I am as lovable as others. Mirror back. To me. And so they do everything they can to be indispensable, and they're avoiding being disregarded or discarded or forgettable or really being rejected. And so a lot of the time, they're the people who will do anything for the people around them. It's not to say that they do it for every single person who's ever lived. They can be a little bit more selective than that, but they genuinely like want everyone to feel good, and so they create that positive, hospitable place. And then threes are motivated by this. Need to be successful in the sense of being an admirable, impressive, productive person. And threes have a tendency, and this is what I alluded to earlier, to kind of shape shift and show up differently depending on who's in the room, because they believe, Oh, that's how I can be. The most successful is to show them what they want to see. And so they're really adept at they use that emotional centre to be able to shape shift really well. And it sounds fake. It doesn't feel fake for threes, because they're thinking, Well, I'm just highlighting pieces of myself that I like and low lighting other ones, or that you like more so and low lighting other ones, and so it doesn't feel inauthentic, though other types do perceive it that way, and they're avoiding being a failure, like they avoid failure at almost any cost. And that could look like not engaging in things that they know or that they're not certain that they will be successful in. Or it could look like, you know, doing whatever they have to do to like, however hard they have to work, however much they have to bend themselves out of shape to be successful or productive. And I should also say success, according to them and their like family of origin doesn't always look the same, right, like,

Scott Allender:

whatever that environment, whatever that definition of success in that culture, in that environment, that's what they represent, essentially. Yeah. And

Stephanie Barron Hall:

then we have fours who are motivated by this need to find and express their truest, most authentic identity. And so they're always plumbing the depths of their psyche, trying to find what is really true about me and like, what can I uncover that's more and so they're very introspective. They're very attuned with their emotional world. So twos are attuned with everyone else's emotions, but not so much their own. Threes use emotions in a really surface way to figure out who they need to be, but they don't really like to process them. They like to move fast, and emotions slow you down. And then fours really are constantly searching for more emotionality, and they're avoiding being inauthentic or insignificant. And so fours will always kind of do something a little bit extra or leave like their little, you know, unique spin on things as a means of self expression.

Scott Allender:

Yeah, yeah. So let's move to head types,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

the five, six, sevens, yeah, so fives are motivated to by this, need to be competent and self sufficient. And self sufficiency is one of the most important things. They sometimes get confused on paper, not in person, but on paper with eights, because eights want to be autonomous. That's super important for eights. But fives have this similar drive, but for different reasons. So fives say I have to be self sufficient, because if I'm not, that will invite other people to intrude upon me, if I need something from somebody else, that will invite them to intrude, and I just don't have the energy or the bandwidth to deal with that, and they're avoiding being depleted and specifically thinking about their energy resources, time, emotional resources, all of that. So they start each day thinking, this is how much time or energy I'm going to have for each thing today. And they don't like to be thrown off. They're very cerebral. They really it's not to say that they don't have emotions, but they like to self isolate and then pick them apart and break them into disparate parts and deal with emotions that way, versus their friends, the fours that are right next to them on the Enneagram circle, who really focus on the emotional aspect, and fives focus on minimising that and creating margin in their lives overall. And then sixes are motivated by the need to feel certainty. And they just want to feel like 100% certain about anything. And that feeling is elusive, because the closer they get, the further away that it is. Yeah, and so sixes are interesting because they have all this fear, but most of what they do is actually oriented to mitigate that feeling of fear. So they they're not thinking, I'm afraid, I'm afraid, I'm afraid. They're doing whatever they can, whether that's planning, whether that's gathering people around them, or whether that's trying to scare off the fear they do. They have these different tactics to not feel afraid. And so they're a little bit tricky, because some of them see fear and they move away from it, and we call those phobic sixes. And some of them see fear and they move toward it, which we call counter phobic sixes. And it's interesting, because for a while, I would always say, you know, this is the type of six that, if, like the counterphobic Six, they will, if they're afraid of heights, they go skydiving. And then I was like, Maybe I shouldn't say that, because it does sound stereotypical. But then every time I don't share that in a team session, somebody says, Oh yeah, I'm afraid of heights. And so I went skydiving. And I was like, Okay, I gotta say it again. So like it but they're just, they're funny and, yeah, very interesting people, because they also have this very contrarian nature. So anything you say, they like to be like, I don't know about that. Are you sure about that? I have a lot of sixes in my life, so it's a fun time, but they're avoiding being really having this experience of being stranded and being like, kind of caught with their neck out. So they're always trying to make sure that they don't have that experience and that their worst case scenario does not come to fruition. Yeah.

Scott Allender:

Okay, so great descriptions on both five and six. All these descriptions, but now our final in our series, type seven, final head type tell us about sevens.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

So sevens are motivated by this. Need to be free to explore the world of possibilities. And sometimes they get stereotyped as they're just fun loving and that's all they care about. But it's actually about mental stimulation. So they always want to have something to chew on, some puzzle to be processing. And a lot of the time, if they don't have that, they're going to go out and do something that will just catch all that, like kind of consuming experience. And so when it comes to fear, they're actually just working to escape it and outrun it. So that's that's really what's motivating them, and they are avoiding being trapped in pain or boredom. And a lot of sevens don't really resonate with the pain part, except that boredom feels physically painful for sevens. So they always have something new or interesting that they're moving toward, and that feels motivating for them.

Scott Allender:

So thank you for that. I think that's such a brilliant, high level description, and I know you just scratched the surface. We could spend an hour talking about each Intelligence Centre, right? And we could talk about the ways that head types to have a tendency to be biassed towards their prefrontal cortex and their sort of rational planning, but because they tend to be less in tune with the body, they miss out on essential information right and heart types who over prioritise connection can miss out on other things as well. So there's a lot. There's like a master class that could be done in just the importance of these three centres, and let alone, we could do an hour on each of the individual types. So somebody might be listening and thinking, I've heard enough where I related to that and I related to that, but I'm not really sure. How would you advise somebody to start exploring finding their type.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I used to be the person who was like, don't take a test. They're only going to lead you astray. And I have really changed my tune on that, because it is hard for us to really understand our these motivation things if we don't have some sort of guide. And I find that even you know so I do typing interviews where I sit down with somebody and I ask them the same I ask everyone the same questions, which is awesome, because I can then tell them, Oh, well, fours normally answer this question this way, and six is this way, etc. But it's much easier for them to answer those questions if they've thought about this before. So that's why I always recommend starting with an assessment. My very favourite one is called the compass assessment. But it is cost prohibitive, and so there are a lot of other avenues you can go. There is an assessment in my book, which is called Enneagram in real life, or you I have a self typing guide that's totally free. And then there are also other I mean, you can find a billion online, and I can send you guys, you know, the links and everything, to the ones that I like best. So start there and hold your results very loosely, like think of them as a suggestion. It's not diagnosing you. It's not. Telling you for certain, that's your job. So you get your results. And I say, start with the first, the top three, and see what resonates. So go and read about, you know, say your top three results are three, seven and eight. Then you go and read about those three types. Kind of get a feel for them, and then listen to podcast interviews, watch panels on YouTube. Those pieces are really important because, like I mentioned earlier, sometimes people think, Oh, I'm half five and half eight. And when you actually experience what those types are really like, they're very different. But sometimes they get confused or same with four and nine, people think, Oh, I'm you know, half four, half nine, and they're very different. And you can get a feel for that a little bit more when you're listening to an interview or watching panellists talk about their experience. Yeah, a little bit better.

Scott Allender:

And so touching on there is that that types do the same things, but they do it for different reasons, exactly.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

And so I think that's what I want to encourage as well, is looking at the motivational level, like, what are the things that are driving you forward? You know, you might ask yourself, over my career, what feedback have I gotten consistently? I see that a lot, where I see somebody who's like, my whole career, I've been told you're really hard on yourself. And there are certain types that are that particularly struggle with that. And sometimes that, that feedback, can be really enlightening. So yeah, read, watch and listen, and then notice, like, Okay, what is this telling me to do? Because that's the thing we want with the Enneagram, is for it to be practical. So we want the growth practices. So check out some of the growth practices and say which of these feel really tricky for me? Which of them are easy? If it's really easy, unless you are, you know, fully enlightened, it's probably not going to feel really easy, and that might not be the right type for you, because for all of us, there is this real, like, stretch that occurs when we're doing growth aligned with our Enneagram type, because it's uncomfortable.

Scott Allender:

Let's talk about the growth work because, you know, that's that's another standout difference of the Enneagram compared to other sort of typologies, which a lot of typologies will give you new adjectives to describe yourself, right? And sort of like, Yeah, that's true. I do prefer x, or I do prefer y, or I am kind of like that in certain meetings. But the Enneagram invitation actually is to learn all you can about your type, all the reasons why you sort of identify with that type, and how that strategy supported you to get your needs met, but also the way that it's limiting you. And the Enneagram itself can serve even as a map for how to sort of transcend the limitations of your type so you can actually start to take on more diverse perspectives. I want to turn to the work you're doing with Fortune 500 companies like so this is, you know, helping them to understand patterns in leadership. This is a leadership podcast I'm really interested in, like, the leaders you work with, the team dynamics, and how working with the Enneagram can give a lot of insights and come back to the growth work, right? And I want to hear like, how do you work in organisations? To not only present this information, help people to understand their differences, appreciate their differences, cultivate some curiosity, hopefully, and understanding the empathy between the differences, but then also the growth work. Yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I will say I've worked with a lot of teams who are in kind of that messy middle of like they've been around together for a while, and things are feeling like they're not going very well. And I think the Enneagram can be so helpful in those times, because my angle with it is really, I really want to keep it practical, because I do want people to use it, so I talk about it through the lens of communication. So how I normally frame this is say I'm the type of person who, when I'm angry, I get silent, and I go into a meeting and my colleague is silent, and I start assigning my motivation to their behaviour. So my motivation of being angry, I'm like they're silent. So they must be have the same motivation as me, so they must be angry, and then we don't realise it, because we try to be emotionally mature and thoughtful individuals, but we start being defensive, maybe a little short, maybe avoiding that person, and that's where so much miscommunication can happen, whereas if you think, Okay, I have my own motivation and. They have theirs. So let me just stay curious. You could figure out, actually, they're having a bad day, they're tired, they're just thinking. They're processing. There's so many other things that could be happening for that person, other than the singular motivation we ascribe to them. And then if you kind of zoom out from that and think about it through the Enneagram lens, you can realise, oh, they're not trying to drive me crazy. Like there is a reason why they feel this is the best way to move forward. Like sometimes with sixes on the team, sixes ask a lot of questions. And so because they have these real concerns, that they think that, that they believe in, and they're right, that they need to be attended to. And so they're testing and questioning all these things. But it's not out of competition. But then you you've got other types, like threes or eights who perceive that as them just trying to compete for leadership. And that's where things get all mired in all this drama and all that kind of stuff. And so when I'm working with teams, I like to encourage everyone to look at their own shadows or their own blind spots and to focus more on the positives from other people, because I don't want people creating an unsafe work environment by, like, depleting psychological safety by just being accusatory with the Enneagram, right? Yeah, so. But when they're looking at their own stuff, they say, Okay, this is how this is coming across, or this is what I'm meaning, and this is, you know, what I'm actually sharing or being really clear with other people. This is how it works best to communicate with me. And when I say this, that often gets misunderstood, and I want to clarify that, so just helping people to open up some of those conversations and be a lot more clear about them. And it can be really useful with leaders, because I think, you know, what I really like to do is interview everyone on the team, and then, you know, do some coaching with the leader and for them to learn, like, Oh, I thought I that it was having x impact and was having y impact, and helping them to understand how they could get the effect that they're wanting. And normally, there is an Enneagram explanation for it, right? And so helping, helping them work on okay, if I'm a three, and I've seen this many times, a three leader who is running their people ragged, yeah, because they have such high expectations, or a seven leader who's like, who can't say, No, we can't take on any more projects, and just gets so excited and wants to do all these different interesting things. And then when their people are stressed, they say, Okay, let's just re scope. So they they re scope every project, but they have the same amount of projects, so people aren't getting any relief. So those are kind of some of the things that I work through. And I feel like that was like a meandering explanation, but it's it's so individualised, but yet, the Enneagram material that I'm delivering is consistent, and every time it works, and that always blows me away. Yeah,

Scott Allender:

yeah, same I feel like when I work with teams, you know, it's the results you see are always the reward, right? Because the stuff is just like it repeats itself, and the patterns are showing up and at different teams, different cultures, different dynamics, but it all kind of shows up in the same way. So you mentioned, like the example with the sevens and the threes and sevens and eights, I think you said, and the sort of interplay with a six who might be contrarian and asking questions and shining doubt, it's, you know, my invitation to those leaders are, that's exactly who you need in a room. You've got to stop stacking the room with three sevens and eights who are going to get into action so quickly that maybe they aren't seen around corners, right? And sixes need a little bit more of the opposite, right? If they're a six leader who's sort of getting paralysed by gosh, I'm not certain. I have no certainty here, right? I don't want to take a risk, because what if the risk produces catastrophe? And now I'm worried about that. So it's also, I think, organising your teams and your meetings and your strategy sessions with making sure you've got all the perspectives from what those gifts of those types bring, as opposed to our tendency, which is to avoid the types that irritate us because they're not like us, right, right?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

And I've created a framework around that to help people understand this, so it's like a car analogy. So we have the gas the types that are like we're just. To go, and we can figure it out along the way. So three, seven and eight, and then the breaks. And I people sometimes in these type groups, don't like being called the breaks, but I still call them that, because it's like, so one, five and six, and these are the types that are like, we are going to go off a cliff. We need to navigate this turn like, let's slow down a bit. Like, let's figure out, you know, what we're going to do. Do we actually have capacity for this? So those sorts of questions, three sevens and eights do not think, do I have capacity for this? And then endless capacity? Yeah, and that actually turns out to not be humanly possible, right? And then the alignment, which are two, four and nine, and they're very people oriented types, and they're asking, are all the wheels pointing the same direction? Like Are we all on the same page? And I think that using this framework has really helped me work with teams who, especially in corporate America, sometimes there is that presumed hierarchy of like, well, threes and sevens and eights are the best because they move the fastest or whatever, and helping people to grasp that we all need all These different voices in the room. Yeah,

Scott Allender:

yeah. Well, that's, yeah, you're touching on, you know, especially for threes in Western culture, right? That sort of endless capacity, work myself to death and work my team to death often gets rewarded because they're tireless. They'll sleep when they're dead, right? They just keep going, right? But it's not sustainable. So how do you use the Enneagram with teams? Or do you for I mean, you're touching on this and your answers already, but do you ever like approach this with an intentional focus on Team sustainability and well being? And is there any sort of some, I know, there's a lot of leaders that I talk to that, you know, they're all on the not all, but so many leaders are on the verge of burning out, right? And they feel like their teams are burning out and well being. Initiatives and organisations are often bolted onto the side and they're not baked into the work that we do. Any other thoughts you might have on how a team might work with a leader might work with this system for the purposes of achieving sustainable well being?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, I think the thing that I like to point to is that, admittedly, it's been a little while now since I did my graduate degree, but there's all this research about how intent to turn over decreases when people feel understood by their manager and they feel like, okay, my manager supports me. And I think that that is so important for people to recognise, because the Enneagram is one of those ways for people to feel more understood, especially if it's used with, you know, humility and like, thoughtfulness. And I think that's also one of the reasons why more companies should invest in tools like the Enneagram, because turnover is very expensive. So if they can decrease the desire for people to leave, because there's that old, old adage that you know, you've heard a million times, people don't leave companies, they leave managers, right? So I think a supportive person in that role can go a long way. So, and I really believe, and I've seen this play out, that if, even if somebody doesn't feel totally understood, if they feel like their manager is really trying to understand them, that goes a long way. And then also, in general, we spend so much of our time at work or on work zoom calls, you know, whatever the case may be. And if we can improve mental health there, then that improves us overall. Yeah. And so creating workplaces where people are communicating, well, where people are not taking so much offence, where people are just broadly more compassionate toward one another. I think those things go a long way. And, you know, there's also the research around burnout being more about like creating meaning sometimes can can be more useful than, like, just decreasing what you're doing, like, the amount of hours you're working. And so sometimes I think meaningful connections can guard against it. Now, yeah, does that solve

Scott Allender:

it? I agree, yeah. No, it's brilliant.

Sara Deschamps:

If the conversations we've been having on The Evolving Leader have helped you in any way, please share this episode with your network friends and family. Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get back to the conversation.

Scott Allender:

Let's turn to your book, because I really have to commend you again. I think you've done this incredible. Job. You know, you wrote, it's called Enneagram in real life, and so you've done this brilliant job of being really practical. And everything you've been saying in this conversation emphasises the pragmatic, but you've done it in a way that is still so engaging, right? It's so like in I read every page, and as I was going through it, I'm just like, I am drawn into this. It's not written like a textbook, but every page is filled with really useful information. So kudos again on that. And I wish you'd written your book before I wrote mine, because I would have written a better book, I think, had I read yours first honestly, but it's it's really great. Tell me why you wrote it, who it's aimed at, and you wrote another book at the same time, didn't you? That's coming out soon as well, which is nuts, and you as a three I'm kind of worried that you've done two books at one time. Me too.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

So I started writing about the Enneagram in like around 2018 on Instagram, and around that time is when I also started working with teams and small groups. And over the years, I've gotten the same question, which is, I know my type now. What do I do with it? And so I really set out to answer that question, and the material that's in the book originally, I created like an online course and did basically like a group coaching cohort, and coached people through this material, like I taught it via videos, and then we discuss, which was so helpful as well, because knowing what works and what doesn't is really, really helpful. And so it's, it's that question of, like, what do I do with this information that I wanted to answer? And my perspective on the Enneagram is, like you mentioned earlier, it's a map, so it's telling us what direction to go. But the Enneagram doesn't innately have, like, you know, these are therapy practices, these are coaching practices. So I love self help books, and so I thought, what if I wrote something that feels like a self help book that has, like, all of these different practices, but because sometimes I'll read them, like, for example, chatter by Ethan cross, one of my favourites, and I can read through that and be like, Oh, this would be good for this type, and this is good for this type. But in general, most self help books are kind of written for a broad audience, but in reality, when I read them, I'm like, this tip is helpful for this type. And so it was kind of a way for me to take that concept and write nine self help books, if you will. So about 50% of each chapter is full of like, okay, this is the description of what this looks like. This piece of the Enneagram that we're exploring here. And this is how you work on it. So really, that emphasis on that. And the second piece of why I wrote it was, I mentioned earlier that I do typing interviews, and a lot of the time, you know, I'm like, Okay, well, the evidence points to type one, or the evidence points to type three. And they're like, You know what, I'm really not a perfectionist enough to be a one, or I'm not successful enough to be a three, and it made me realise that when people are getting so much of their information in these quick little bite sized pieces, whether that's on Tiktok or Instagram or wherever, they're not getting a deep enough understanding of the underworkings of the types themselves to be able to actually apply the information. And that was stopping a lot of people as well. So I really wanted to create something that would have more of that depth, so that people could then apply it, so it's kind of both of those things. And then throughout, I just included stories from people that I interviewed specifically for the book, because I don't include anything about my actual coaching or typing clients, and then stories from Team workshops over the years. So it has a lot of little, you know, many anecdotes. Yeah,

Scott Allender:

I'd like to come back full circle to the start of our conversation when your husband introduced you to the system that I don't know. Is he glad he introduced you to this now? Or No, I guess if the book sells enough copies, he's right. But, you know, you talked about having some ick moments, right? You sort of like there's because the Enneagram is not a system designed for flattery, right? There's positive stuff in there. It'll point to all the ways. I mean, if, if our types didn't serve us well and have positive attributes, we wouldn't be sort of stuck there, right? They serve us in some ways. So there's positive stuff, but there is that, like, non flattering kind of, like, stories that start to come to light, like, what's behind the motivation? What's this frame I'm holding up to life? Like, why am I seeing this? What's What's this fear in me telling me, like, threes, you know? You and I are both share point three as our type, right? And I remember when I first read that, you know, the core fear of a three is that, apart from what they achieve, they have no worth it was like a gut punch, right? And at first I wanted to resist it and be like, that's not true. That's not that would be a very unhealthy perspective. But the longer I sat with it, and the more I reflected on my own life, the more I saw evidence of that, like how stopping work left me feeling so unsettled, right? Like I didn't know what to do with myself at the end of the day, when I couldn't find more to do, right? So how did you move past the ick, there's a sign on your wall I'm seeing behind you, the courage to change the things I can like, how did you find the courage to keep going? Why somebody even listening today who might have caught a bit of an ick moment going, Gosh, I maybe that one or that seven, or whatever you've described, might be me. How do How did you find the courage? What has it done for your life and what would be your end? Your invitation to others?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, I think it's the little glimpses along the way of insight or enlightenment that are like, Oh, that's why I do that, or, Oh, that's what I was doing. And realising that, I think that's where the kind of courage to keep going comes from, right? Because otherwise you're like, Oh, this feels like a slog. But I also think I really wanted to be healthier for the people around me, and I tend to be very self critical, which three is typically kind of are, but some, some threes aren't, but it's not one of the types that everyone's like, Oh, they're the most self critical type, but we can be that way. And I was like, How do I get rid of this? Like, how do i Quiet that? And I think what really set me on that path. And also the question for three is, is, who am I, and what do I I actually want? If I'm not looking at everyone else to tell me what I want, what do I actually want? So, um, yeah, I was just like, Okay, what is the path to figure out what I want, and I learned that the way to do that was through becoming more accepting of and in tune with my emotions. And so that has been a whole thing that's been a big part of the process, is becoming more emotionally aware and attuned and allowing space and time for that. And it's interesting, because now when I do things that it's like somebody else is telling me I have to do this and I don't want to, it feels painful. And threes are kind of built to be like, I'll do whatever, and it doesn't matter how I feel about it, right? Yeah, like, that's our natural mode. And so I think that in some ways, I don't have that anymore, and it's interesting to kind of explore that. But I also, you know, once I started seeing, like, how it was helping my relationships and things like that too. I was like, okay, that's helpful.

Scott Allender:

Yeah, yeah, I feel similar. And it's not, it's not a straight line journey either, right? It's that's a lot of it's a lot of ups and downs and two steps forward, one step back. And it's all about being, as you say, compassionate with yourself, curious to know more, right? Hold yourself with compassionate curiosity and as you go on this sort of journey. Brilliant. So how do people get in touch with you if they want to hire you for coaching or workshops?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, you can book a call with me on my website, which is nine types.co and it's all spelled out. And, yeah, I start with a consultation call for everyone, because I want to figure out the outcomes that you want for your team. And then we'll we'll go from there and work together. And then you can also find my book on my website, which is, again, nine types.co and the book is called Enneagram in real life, and you can find it wherever books are sold, including the audiobook, which I got to read. Did

Scott Allender:

you do the audiobook?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I did

Scott Allender:

Awesome. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, folks, if you have felt a tinge of curiosity at all. And in this conversation, I do encourage you to order Steph book straight away, the Enneagram in real life. And when does your next part of the book? I don't know. I don't know yet. I turn it. You turn it in soon, though? Right? Yeah. Yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

yeah. So it's in. It's just, we'll see what the next part of the process looks like.

Scott Allender:

Okay, okay. Well, listen, get the book everyone. You won't regret it, I promise you. It's, you know, when you find your type in there and you start reading, you're going to not be able to put it down, I promise you that. And it's going to be well worth it. And contact Steph for working with your teams. Steph, thanks so much for sharing some of your time today and your wisdom and your insights. We appreciate

Stephanie Barron Hall:

you. Thanks for having me. This is really fun, and

Scott Allender:

until next time, folks remember, the world is evolving. Are you? You?

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Scott Allender

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