The Evolving Leader

The Excitable Soul with James Glover

• James Glover • Season 7 • Episode 5

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Are you feeling stuck? Finding your purpose changes everything.

During this new episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, co-host Jean Gomes talks to self-confessed purpose nerd James Glover. James is the founder of The Excitable Soul, an organisation through which he and his team address the challenge that is helping people find their purpose. James is a World Champion athlete and a former Olympic performance coach, and after leaving elite sport he has worked all over the world with large organisations including Google, Microsoft and Sky helping them invest in their people and nurture a happier, stronger workforce. James is also the host of the Excitable Soul podcast (on which both Jean and Scott have been guests). 

Referenced during this episode:
The Excitable Soul - https://theexcitablesoul.com/ 

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)

The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)

Send a message to The Evolving Leader team

Scott Allender:

A recurring theme on the evolving leader centers around how to live a good life for ourselves, of course, but also because when we don't get what we need, it has massive implications for those that we lead and care about. And given how strained the relationship can be between our needs and demands of leadership, it becomes ever more important for us to ensure that we have a clearly defined purpose to help us navigate the potential turbulence in this show. While I was navigating the Greek islands on my vacation, Jean talked to James Glover, someone who has made it his purpose to help others find theirs. James has done this in the context of elite and Olympic sport and across a wide variety of businesses globally. His passion for purpose will immediately become apparent to you and help you deepen your clarity for where you're heading. Tune into an important topic on the evolving leader.

Jean Gomes:

Welcome to the evolving leader, a show born from the belief that we need a deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to face the challenges of an uncertain, polarizing and automating world today, I'm joined by an incredible human being, James Glover, who I've known for many years. James has interviewed both Scott and I on his wonderful podcast, which I thoroughly recommend, the excitable soul. It's a unique manifestation of him as a human being and some of the great people that he knows in his life and that he's getting to meet. So let me just introduce James. He is the founder of an amazing company and mission called the excitable soul. He's a performance coach and a self described purpose nerd with over 15 years of experience with helping people live purposeful, positive lives they genuinely love. Before that, he spent a decade coaching and sporting some of the world's highest performing individuals and teams in Olympic sport, and before that, he was a world champion athlete himself. So James, welcome to the evolving leader.

James Glover:

Thank you very much, especially after that introduction, I hope I can kind of live up to expectations here. Wonderful to be with you.

Jean Gomes:

So James, how are you feeling today?

James Glover:

I'm definitely feeling that sense of anticipation, Jean, from being the other side of the podcast experience, and I think I've definitely become accustomed to the comfort of being the person that asks the questions, rather than being in the kind of the proverbial Hot Seat. So I guess I feel, I feel a nervous excitement, but I feel really present and and really playful. So I'm looking forward to this

Jean Gomes:

Excellent. Well, I'm I'll just share how I'm feeling, because it's been a long, really rich week with some brilliant things happening and this, this has been kind of like I've been something I've been looking forward to, because I know it marks the the kind of transition into the weekend. So it's a it's something I've been anticipating with a lot of pleasure and hope. So thank you for spending this time. So before we get into the heart of the conversation, can you bring to life the experiences of competing, first as an elite athlete and then as a performance coach who's helped UK teams win Olympic medals for the first time? That must represent an incredible source of fulfillment in your life as you look back?

James Glover:

Yeah, massive, massive. It was a really, it was a really important period, actually. And I think one of the things that it's probably important for people to know is that they almost weren't. It wasn't a linear experience. I didn't go from being an athlete into working with athletes. I was actually doing it in parallel. And that's because the the kind of the discipline that I completed in the sport that I competed in was was a non Olympic discipline. It was the sport of whitewater rafting, if you can believe that a bunch of a bunch of people throwing themselves down incredibly challenging whitewater and doing really, really difficult, skillful things in the process. And it was that that experience alone was a huge source of pride for me, and relates directly almost to the kind of the opportunity of working with Olympians in that I've always loved sport, and I almost don't understand where the genesis of that came from. I haven't found the kind of the the true. Moment are the source. It feels like it's something that has just been ever present in me. You know, I remember watching my first Olympic Games. There's kind of a wonderful irony that today is actually the day of recording. This is the day of the opening ceremony of the Paris Olympic Games. So, you know, the universe doing its thing as always. But I remember the the Los Angeles games in 88 I was seven years old, and I have a really clear memory of watching Carl Lewis in track and field. Do you know, winning four Olympic gold medals and the kind of the almost superhuman nature of what he was able to do? And then again, really clearly remember 92 and Linford Christie, I'd started playing hockey at that point in time, and was I couldn't believe you got to watch hockey on television. So I was pestering my parents for the remote control at different times to be able to so I had this, this kind of real deep affinity with with with sport, with Olympics, with that kind of sense of national pride, watching our athletes achieve, seeing what was possible from other athletes. And there was definitely a desire fostered in me to want to have a piece of that action at some point. And for a while, the dream was, could I make it as a hockey player? But any of the people out there who have ever either played with me or against me will know that the enthusiasm outweighs the talent fairly considerably. So that wasn't necessarily going to be be an outcome for me, but later down my kind of my path, and working in this kind of outdoor education environment and and being kind of in the natural, extreme kind of sport environment, really, really, really, met a lot of my kind of physical characteristics and my kind of overexcited personality. And so there's a group of us at that point in time you had the opportunity to start to race, and in order to be able to compete, you had to win at a national level. So you had to be the best in your home nation. Then you had to be the best in Great Britain in order to be able to go and represent Great Britain. And the first time that we did that, because we were national champions, I think seven times, the first time we did that, marked a sea change in me, in the group of people that I was with and the sport itself, in that we were the first team to commit for over a decade to our pursuit of excellence. How far could we push ourselves? How far could we push each other? How far could we push the sport domestically? And so I guess there are a couple of things. One is I got to wear the Union Jack, and I got to go and compete against other nations wearing that. And I will be really honest, the first World Championships we went to, we were horrific. But you know, you don't learn anything from winning straight away, do you? So let's just say we learnt a lot for the first couple of international competitions we went to, until the point where we were the ones that were stood on the top of the podium, both at a European level and at a world level, and to hear the national anthem played because of something that you'd done, to be able to look around at your competitors and see a genuine appreciation, because they've seen the effort and the journey that you've gone on. We walked into the tent at the European Championships, the last ones to come in ahead of the medal ceremony, we got a standing ovation, and that we hadn't seen that before, and that was because we'd been around for a while, and people had seen the progress that we'd made over that period of time. So the kind of the pride and the fulfillment in the effort to be able to achieve those outcomes, and what it took for us to do that was was immense, but also its connection to the Olympic sport environment. I still find it really difficult to even when you're saying there, you know, you being an elite athlete. I find it difficult to own in that compared to the people I was working with on a day to day basis, who were our Olympians, who were being funded, I had a different understanding of what elite meant. I mean, we could argue, we could debate, I was working full time and training twice a day in order to be able to make the gains I was making. Those guys were just training full time, but the commitment, the dedication, the sacrifice that I was seeing from them on a day to day basis, I don't know if I would have changed places with them. Actually, I don't know if I would have wanted that. So it felt like a real privilege to to be on the journey that I was on, but also be a part of theirs. And London a home Olympic Games. There was a huge amount of skepticism as to whether or not we as a nation could host those games and do a really good job. And then off the back of Beijing, we'd set this expectation of, well, not only could we win a few medals, we could really do something that had been never done. Had never been done before, and that proved to be the case. You know, we we won more medals than we'd ever done at Olympic Games up until that point in time, and to work with three sports who had never. Meddled before and and all. Well, actually, the two of them hadn't meddled before. At the same level, they all won gold medals. They'd never won gold medals before, and they all won gold medals. It was just, it was, it was a really mixed moment in the the sense of connection that I felt to that group of people and the journey that they on the level of pride and deep satisfaction in all that we given to get, to get those guys to that point in time, and almost a a real deflation, like it's probably the closest to burnout, like genuine, physical and emotional burnout I've ever had. But it felt worth it, which is almost a strange thing to say.

Jean Gomes:

Well, watching, you know, having met quite a lot of the people who either are performance coaches or the like the, you know, the people organize it in the days, weeks, months after the Olympics, they are like husks for for several months because of the exertion required to get into that zone. So I totally understand that the renewal process back out. It must be incredible, but let's put that all to one side, because that gives us a little bit of context about about you and what you understand it. You know what it takes to to do that, to put that extraordinary effort in, and how you can support the person behind that. So can we get into the path that you found yourself on, helping other people to find, not only you know, their means of achieving great performance, but the purpose, the underlying, the sense of meaning behind that. Why? Why? Why was that something that was so important to you?

James Glover:

I think there are two things here, Jean. One is probably a kind of a deeply personal experience, and the other, the other is more an observation of others based on my experience. And so the the first being working in that that sporting environment was was a gift, and it was a difficult learning environment for me, because, if I'm really honest, I felt like a square peg in a round hole. The entire time I was there, surrounded by PhDs, like genuine experts in their fields, people that studied for for for years and years and years, to be part of these kind of multidisciplinary teams. And my role as a coach, as a lifestyle coach in that environment, was to genuinely focus on the person behind the performance, not the machine, the kind of the mechanics of the thing that you were trying to get to be better and better, but the person, the flawed individual, the messy individual that sits behind all of that and is trying to make magic happen, and at that point in time, honestly, it wasn't something That was overly focused on, but, you know, the winning and what it takes to win. We were getting success as a nation. We were starting to understand what that took for us. That was that was a deep priority. And so I didn't feel like I necessarily belonged at the table, yet, I had this intuitive sense of how important this work was. And if you fast forward now, you know, given the the amount of time that's passed, the the work of the the lifestyle coaches in the high performing system is absolutely critical, absolutely critical, and has been for a really long time. It's not just the few who who invest in it. It's the the entire system sees the significance and importance, which is, which is wonderful. But for me, I was, I was really scrabbling around. I don't know how to make sense of the contribution I'm trying to make here at this point in time, and it feels really alien and really difficult to me. And then I was given the opportunity of going on a leadership development program. And on that leadership development program, we're talking, you know, 2009 I think as as with many leadership development programs, Simon Sinek, TED talk was part of the kind of the preparation for one of the particular modules, and it hit me square in the soul. There are probably three or four other examples I could give of experiencing provocation like that that I knew was going to be game changing. And there are a number of things that he shared so eloquently in that video that's now become legend over time, but one thing that he talked about was a sense of purpose, is a feeling it doesn't come, isn't generated from the same parts of the brain that are logically thinking their way through the world, and so it can't be described with language. And all of a sudden I felt I felt freed because I couldn't convey the importance of some of the things that I was doing in language. But I felt it. I felt it deeply, and I felt it strongly, and it was because of those feelings I stayed in this position of uncomfor just trying to figure it out. And all of a sudden, I've got this mechanism now there is a deeper way of. Able to understand things. There's a deeper way of being able to make connections. And not only, not only is it liberating, and you know, useful for you, but actually it can make the impossible happen and for others. So that was it. That was the spark lit for me in terms of, in terms of a journey of wanting to understand more of the underlying mechanisms. But the bit that then plays out in experience is that whether it was working in high performance sport or working with some of the most progressive organizations on the planet, you know, Microsoft and Google and some you know more traditional organizations like Shell, Goldman, Sachs, etc, regardless of the environment, you could see the people who were able to make lasting change for themselves because they were the ones that had a compelling reason to invest in doing things differently. They felt a sense of meaning and significance that drove them to embracing change, embracing ambiguity, and so in this moment of time, in this world where the sheer chaos of it, to some degree, is just kind of ramping up, it felt really important to be able to bring people back to something that is profoundly human, but if acknowledged and understood in the right way can help them navigate the chaos that we're experiencing right now.

Jean Gomes:

Yeah and I love that sentiment of not having to rationally justify emotional conviction because it's a dead end. I think one of the things that we, you and I have talked about is that just the growing numbers of people that are reaching this point in their life where they suddenly recognize that something profound is missing. You know, they've been chasing something, or they've been on a path that been set by the direction of others, or the expectations of somebody in their life, or or even just an underlying assumption that what they're doing is good and worthwhile, and then suddenly they hit a wall and question all of that, what? What are you seeing in that, that set of circumstances that you can consistently kind of pull apart?

James Glover:

Well, I think I would point to, I would point to the the kind of the acute nature of some of the things that we're experiencing now. So you can, you can use covid as a really great example. It was such a unifying event because of its scale of disruption, it almost stopped everybody in their tracks. And not only did it stop us in our tracks, but we were stopped in our tracks and held in a place I'll never forget, you know, Boris Johnson's floofy hair finding its way to the television, and then telling us all that we weren't allowed to go out anymore, and thinking, Oh, dear. What? What does the world look like? Now, I have two small children, and where are we going to go? And if you are given, if you are confronted in that way. And then you are given space that isn't filled by something else. Then immediately you're forced to to see, to feel, to question some things that maybe have been playing out without any conscious awareness. And for me, that sense of kind of abrupt, um, I don't even know what. I don't even know the right terminology to describe it, but just kind of stopping you in your tracks, as forced people to question, do I want what I have do? What is the worth the life I'm living? Is it worth it, do all of the things I'm going after, is it worth the effort? So the kind of, the main question really here is, is it worth it? And actually, if you think about where we are on our evolution as human beings, we have more option and opportunity available to us. Should we choose to acknowledge it and use it than we've ever had before. So we have this wicked combination of, there is these kind of forces or events that are forcing us to confront some stuff at the same time as there being greater levels of opportunity to be able to do things differently, and people are going, how do I how do I choose? How do I know that where I put my effort where I place my energy is deserving of it. Am I going to get the the outcome, the sense, the feeling that this matters, and that can be an incredibly it can be an incredibly powerful experience. On a number of levels, it can either feel quite liberating and set you on a path to see opportunity, or it can feel really paralyzing and anxiety creating in that there's an unknown and a fear of unknown as to, as to what, what might, what might come,

Jean Gomes:

I think, alongside all the other kind of major shocks that we've been taking. Place since, you know, kind of the middle of last decade, like Brexit and yeah, Trump and all the kind of things that have been happening. The word existential crisis has just been kind of going through the roof in terms of its use. And covid gave everybody the moment to have a shared existential crisis of, what are we doing? Who are we, and so on. And that was interesting, because it was from the top to the bottom of organizations and society with nobody excluded from that, that feeling, that exposure, yeah.

James Glover:

And I think for me, this gets at the heart of purpose, actually, these kind of disruptive events, and the, you know, the the kind of the unprompted refraction that they they create, you know, up and up until and even continuing through these events. The the speed, the pace and the complexity has been quickening, and people have just been struggling to keep up. So the vast majority of effort has just gone into, can I cope with the day to day? And then all of a sudden, you're put in a position where, oh, it's not about necessarily just coping. It's about seeing what the outcome of that coping really looks like. And to your point, you know, am I going after things that truly matter to me, or have those been set by something external to me? And that really is the kind of the heart of the journey around purpose. Because if you, if you break it down and and, believe me, there's a there's a there's an immediate experience of having to let go of what purpose is. When I started on this journey thinking, Oh, you can define something in a way that can make sense to everybody, and go, Oh, no, there are about 1000 people that have all tried to do that in one form or another. It's kind of going on a sense, making journey that you feel comfortable with. The one that felt most comfortable to me was where I've seen the kind of the evidence around people's sense of self worth and feeling enough coming from the inside out so it is governed by the things that feel meaningful and significant to them, not because they have been set as meaningful and significant by others or things that are outside of them. And what you see universally is when people truly understand that what is meaningful in their life, and they feel like they're able to make a contribution to those things, they immediately feel a sense of value.

Jean Gomes:

I have worth, yeah,

James Glover:

and a guest on on my on my podcast, and a friend and a colleague, Simon lamb, said that their individuals need to understand that they have worth and they have value before they can create value. And it was almost this kind of sense and realization that if we start with something as simple as not just what matters to me in terms of awareness and and where and how am I making sense of the world around me, like, what is meaning, what does what's meaningful just from a sense making perspective, but what's meaningful to me from a significant and important perspective That becomes really liberating, because you you are wrestling back control and influence over where and how you cultivate your own sense of self worth, and in this point in time where there are so many pulls and pressures that, in its own right, becomes a superpower.

Jean Gomes:

So I mean, I know you very well. We've worked together for a long time and socialized and all sorts of things. So over the last decade plus, one thing I know to be absolutely true about you is that you are committed to growth, to personal development, your own personal development. You're also committed to holding yourself accountable to where the gaps in your life and you're probably your own. You know strongest, I wouldn't say critic, but you know, accountability coach. You coach yourself through this process. But last year, I interviewed you for what I think is a very powerful article about a moment in your life where you faced an accountability gap, and, you know, it's a really painful moment of realization in your personal life. Can you happy to talk about this? Yeah, I think it helped you to strengthen your resolve to leave a more purposeful life.

James Glover:

Yeah. And I, you know, I have to, I have to credit and thank my wife for both being with me in and through that experience, and also being happy for it to be something that we share and talk about and that that you so eloquently captured for us, which is We? We? We became parents in 2016 for the first time, my daughter Isla, who is now eight and kind of just finishing her third year at school, but she came into the world in fairly traumatic circumstances, and we didn't know, and nobody could tell us if she was going to be okay for the first year of her life, whether or not there be any developmental issues and that and. Immediately places a stress and a strain on couples over and beyond, becoming parents for the first time and realizing that you know nothing is ever going to be the same again, in a in a wonderful and chaotic and deeply fear, inducing cauldron of emotion, but having this kind of uncertainty hanging over a sent us both into overdrive, not to mention the trauma of the experience itself and and I guess, to understand this and maintain the kind of the purpose connection, there's probably a couple of things that are important to just know about me, which is, I find meaning in helping others. Now, at one level, that's that's nothing unique to me. In fact, all of us, to some degree, are genetically and biochemically engineered to want to help one another as part of being a kind of a social species. But my desire to help goes beyond even the kind of the the genetic expression, it was behavioral. I've grown up gaining a huge amount of validation from being somebody who can be relied upon and take responsibility and look after others. So I come into this, this space of being a parent, and that's going to go into overdrive, like we don't know what's going to happen with with our little person. I'm going to look after this little person. I'm going to look after my I'm going to look after my wife literally like my life depended on it. They're going to come first and foremost. If you imagine, at the same time, my career was was hitting a new high, you know, I was having the opportunity to work with you. We were doing some really incredible things. We were traveling all over the place, and in that moment in time, there was need for me to be able to step up really considerably, and so almost everywhere. I mean, I've gone from, you know, stretch to deep overwhelm and where I where I biased myself was in this, right? I'm helping. I'm helping everywhere. And what the confronting moment for me was that when I was six months old, we went on holiday, and we went to to campsite in France that I used to go to as a kid, and all my family were going and, you know, nieces, nephews, etc. And this was our kind of first holiday abroad, and it was just this moment of release, because it was going to be some time off for me and some time with them, and I'm having a walk with with my wife, and we're trying to to get an eyelid to nap, and she just turned around to me and said, I'm deeply unhappy. And if we continue like this, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. I can't, I can't even think about it now without, without feeling that, that that kind of emotion, and the you know, talk about, talk about covid, covid was nothing in comparison to the wallop I got from, from, from that, that conversation. But the the confrontation for me was, how am I here? How am I literally breaking myself in half to do as much as I can for everybody else and the very things that matter most to me, the people that should be the main beneficiaries of this are potentially not going to be in my life anymore. Like, what am I not seeing and the reality for me and all of that was, I was making a whole bunch of assumptions about what other people needed from me or wanted from me. And in that regard, with with, with with Jo and with Isla, what she wanted was, was, was the James, who is energetic and hopeful and positive and playful and buoyant, and in actual fact, I was seeking a place to just crash and burn because I was so overwhelmed physically and emotionally and mentally that when I was getting home, I was trying to both recover and be on and present and carry and take the load. So this is going to sound like a a simple example, but these are the things that we overlook that can make a profound shift in that I'm an eight hours ago, eight hours a night sleep guy, right? There's no warrior in me whatsoever. If I don't get eight hours, I have a shambles, absolute shambles. But the amount of travel I was doing the fact that Isla wasn't sleeping. When I come home, I'd want to be up. I'd want Joe to rest. I'd want Jo to get some sleep. I've been away. She's carrying the entire load. So I'm saying to her, no, you sleep. You stay in bed. I'll go do this, but then I'm exhausted. I'm the absolute worst of myself. So Actually, she's saying to me, you rest, you sleep. Because actually, if you do that, the person I get when you're awake is the person that I want, the person that I need, and is the person I'm going to is going to help me do I hear any of that? No, all I heard is, if I'm not carrying the load for you, I'm failing so to to be able to. Connect the dot between here's here's a way in which I've made meaning and created significance in my life, helping people around me. The application of that had had my understanding of it and the application of it was completely skewed, and I hadn't seen at all that it was completely skewed. And I needed to be able to go back to what do, what do I really need to own, what do I need to be accountable for? That enables me to make the unique contribution that I am capable of to the things that matter to me. And the second that I did that, the second I could start to see that, and the second I started to take ownership over the things that initially had made me feel like I was failing was the second I started to really feel purposeful. Oh, my work. What did you do? What did you do? Well, simple things started with, where's the foundation? So sleep is critical, exercise is critical. But for exercise, again, that meant being away from my family for short periods of time. So there's no way I was going to do that, because that's again, me not being present, etc, etc, but finding the times, finding the right time of a type of exercise, in the right places, in the right ways, being able to sleep and sleep at the times that refreshed me, but also were beneficial being able to actually, and this is the critical thing, emotionally, let go of some of the things I was holding on to, and even more importantly, from an emotional perspective, seek to understand from others. So actually turning around to my wife and saying, What do you need? What do you want from me? Not what I think you want or what I think is important, but what do you really want, and taking that as what was critical, not what I thought was critical. And often for all of us, you know, you can be in that kind of that, that that kind of defensive space, of of of trying to protect, trying to shield your sense of self worth, and therefore not hear what somebody else is trying to say to you, when actually it's a gift, but you need to reconcile what they're hearing with you know what's important and what's significant to you in a way that enables you To truly own your action and intention. So sleep, exercise, emotionally, what do I need to be able to let go of? What do I need to hear that I'm not seeing and hearing? And then, from a from a mental perspective, my orientation then became, where do what? What is most high value, where? Where do I invest my energy? And what that meant was I had to create distance in a lot of relationships. So I was the guy that became the parent and was still getting invited on stag dues, or was still having the opportunity to be invited to different social engagements that were really exciting. And I actually needed to make some choices in that if I'm going to be away all week with work, and actually, my wife and my child are most important to me, then it is okay to let down these other people, if they are truly my friend, if they are truly going to be on this journey with me, they're going to understand that for a period of time that's not going to be possible. And I needed to make that okay, because the second thing that was a real meaning marker for me was about meeting other people's expectations. And so part of that is there's a standard being set that I want to attain, to achieve, but I'd externalize that into I'm projecting what I believe other people want of me, want to see of me, and what expect they expect of me, and then trying to meet it. And in that social context, I had to become really comfortable with something that felt deeply uncomfortable, which is, you may be let down by my choice, but that's okay, because there are some other things that are more important right now. And if I hadn't done that work to understand this connection between meaning and contribution, then I wouldn't have been able to start to make those choices and decisions, which is why purpose is critical. Because purpose is simply what is meaningful to you and the contribution that you want to make to those things. It is meaning in action that is all purpose is. It's an outcome of some understanding, awareness and choices.

Jean Gomes:

So Jo left you after this?

James Glover:

Fast and hard and has never looked back and is having a great time.

Jean Gomes:

No. So for the listeners benefit, we do really need to get to the last page of the story, because they'd be sitting there going, what did this work? What happened?

James Glover:

Well, yeah, so we celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary in December, we after the trauma of having Isla after her first year, she was completely fine. She was a miracle, actually, in that regard. And once we kind of regained our senses of self and kind of almost support. Supported each other to kind of take the time to heal. We decided to go back into the parental, parental melting pot, and we now have Luca too, who is going to be five in a few weeks, and we have genuinely the type of relationship that I could only have dreamed about. It was the one I hoped I'd had before this comfort, this conversation, but it's now the one I know I have because of the type of conversation interaction that we're now capable of, because of those, those kind of moments and the ones that are followed.

Jean Gomes:

What I think is really valuable in this is that many parents lose their minds through the process of having their first children, or just having children, because it's so incredibly difficult to square off all of those, those changes, transformations that that your identity to the things you have to let go of, you know that your former self and so on, and then at the same time, the pressure that you're under to meet the expectations of work and all the other things that we've been talking about, and for you to have not just confronted that, but actually used it as a way of transforming and improving your relationship with your partners, I think is a really valuable kind of insight for people to take away From this. But let's try and zoom out and think about...

James Glover:

Sorry Jean, I think just one of the thing that feels really important here that could be a useful insight for people, is that I often hear in the conversations I have around purpose, where people talk around my my children and my purpose, or, you know, those that are really focused and and gain real satisfaction and fulfillment from work, saying, Well, you know, my my work is my purpose. And actually, the there's something that I've, I've, I've begun to unpick around that, actually, which is those things are transient by nature. And actually, you know, purpose evolves as you understand it more, and your experiences are able almost, kind of create the layers on top, but, but there is something about how and where it's formed that it's it's a stable base for all of us. And so there is a difference between the roles that you play in your life as almost what you focus on and why you focus on them. So the there's the sentiment around purpose comes from a deeper place. So when I'm talking to you about where and how I make meaning and what my sense of purpose is, the way I articulate it now is about it's about belief. It's about believing in others so that they can believe in themselves. And that's because I understand there are four or five meaning markers for me around you know about helping others, around setting a meeting expectation, around playfulness and a whole bunch of other things. I understand how they overplayed. I understand where and how they sit in a place of real enablement, and then I understand the contribution I want to make to those things. So I'm I'm I'm energetic and attentive in equal measure. And when I think about taking those two things, I then start to go, how do I apply those in the roles that I play? So this believing in others, so that they can believe in themselves? That's the father that I want to be. That's the accountability I hold myself to when I when I think about being a parent, when I think about being a business owner, or when I think about being a practitioner, or when I think about being a friend or a family member, I want to be able to believe in what's possible for those people, so that they can feel it for themselves in all of those roles. And so just in what you're describing, there often again, that this kind of nature of transition and parenting is a significant transition, in the same way that a leadership transition is really significant. In the same way that working with athletes, a significant transition is moving from being an athlete to what goes beyond that. The start point for all of this is coming away from those roles and starting to just explore and discover and uncover from within first, because that's the source of purpose. So to hold on to,

Jean Gomes:

let's take the kernel of that idea that this isn't a superficial strategy to try and have a successful life this deep within purpose. Point that you've made here, that there's so much talk about purpose as a corporate strategy, particularly to confront massive, seismic changes such as climate change or social polarization, and we've seen what's happened in the States when organizations did embrace that as a tactical thing with Black Lives Matter, and then the backlash and the fact that it actually wasn't real. It was, it was kind of shaken off very quickly. What's your view on what's happening here? How much of this is real? Virtue versus virtue signaling?

James Glover:

Yeah, I don't know that it's a I don't think it's an either or actually a Jean. I think both things are true, right? So is it real? Yes. Like where, where organizations are purpose LED. I. And they feel purposeful. The data speaks for itself. So this is one of those moments that feels quite liberating in that, you know, the date that like there is genuine data for those that are cognitive and cerebral and need the justification and to be convinced. It's there. It's evidence based now everything from increases in perform, 20% increase in performance, 50% higher levels of productivity. You know, the ability to to attract and retain top talent. You know, there's a talent war out there, because people have choices. 30% increase, 40% more likely to be able to stay in an organization. And then there is the growth metrics. So the bottom line, commercial impact, you're seeing B Corps, certified. B Corps growing at 28 times the kind of the speed of the economy in the UK alone. And that's because, again, something that was really interesting around covid. Just to touch upon, since covid, 75% of people are trying new things, stuff that they whether that's products or experiences, things that they hadn't done before, and 70% of those are willing to move away from something that they've always used or always interacted with to something new, where they know that it has a deep purpose associated with it. So they're making more money, they're getting the talent, they're keeping a hold of the talent, and they're getting the customers, right? This is data driven, so it's real, okay? It's absolutely real. And it's because it's real that you get the superficiality and that you get the virtuous, get the virtue signaling. You get those organizations that are going, Oh, wow, we need to do that, because there's money to be made in that, or we need to hold on to the clients that we've got. So we need to do that. But here lies the rub. To truly embrace purpose an organizational level is exactly the same as truly embracing purpose and individual level. It takes effort. That's where That's where organizations fall down. There isn't the conviction to actually see through what's required in being a purpose led organization most of the time. And so instead, it becomes a superficial rebranding exercise, where we've got some words that feel like they might play really well and give us the kind of the bang and the fizz, but there's no real subs. There's no real substance to it. And this is where the feeling bit comes back in again, because you can't. And I was gonna swear there, but I realized this might not be a sweary podcast, so I'm glad I just caught myself. All right, you're giving, you're giving me the nod you give

Jean Gomes:

me. I just got, I just know it was apple. Have given us a, you know, like, the the kind of ratings it's like, it says there's no bad language on our podcast. All right, yeah, cool. So I'm gonna

James Glover:

keep it I'll keep it clean. Then people can, people can smell, people can smell a rat. Let's use that terminal, that terminology they can bullshit, is what you're gonna There you go. Thank you, yeah, okay, so if you do it, but the that, the they can feel, the authenticity, they can feel it. And so if it's not real, we know, and we know really quickly, and then you get the exact opposite of you of what you want, if you are virtue signaling or you're doing it superficially, which is, people are going, No thank you. I'm going the other way, because, guess what, there are options that I can choose from. So for me, there is just something about organizations just truly understanding the effort that's required, the commitment that's required, the conviction that's required in order to be able to go on the journey to reap the benefits that are evidence based. And so I'm not saying it's easy, because it's not, and nor should it be, because if you do this in the right way, then what you're doing for your organization, what you're doing for the people within your organization, what you're doing for the people who engage your organization, can be transformative all the way around. And for me, that's the real opportunity of of organizations now this growing movement that actually, if we are going to make the seismic shifts that we need to make around the environment and climate change, that's just one example, then actually organizations are probably the biggest lever we can pull in doing that, because they can move quicker than anybody else. I

Jean Gomes:

Yes. So where are you seeing that? I mean, can you give me examples of where the work that you're doing, where you are seeing that effort being put in, and what, what are you learning about what it takes to do that? That's

James Glover:

a really wonderful question, because, and this is almost the beauty of of of working around this, this kind of, this principle, this idea, this philosophy, is that everybody's coming at it from a slightly different perspective. Everybody has a slightly different, nuanced understanding. And for me, that is okay. What we need to help people understand and engage with is the right kind of data. And the right kind of data is the emotional data. And you know, you know from the work that that you've done, and there have been some really, really brilliant, brilliant, evolving leader podcasts around this subject, and this content is that it's data that's largely ignored or largely dismissed. And so the kind of the unifying experience. For me, where organizations are really winning in this versus those that aren't, is they're paying attention to how they feel and the things that create feeling for them in engaging in this work. So I'd almost describe it around three distinct phases. There is an opportunity for an organization to sit back and reflect on its its unique place in the world, like, what are the things that it really cares about that are really significant to it? Right? Where does it find meaning in the work that it does, and what is the contribution that it's making to those things? Because when you start to understand the things that are really important to you, and you start to you, and you start to understand the contribution that you're making. You start to see the uniqueness of the space that you play and, importantly, the value that you create. Then you can start to ask questions around, well, who is right now being impacted in a really positive way or a really negative way by those things, and who else could we impact? So this, this just this first phase of almost organizational time travel and uncovering something that feels like a sense of purpose. And I use that language purposefully, because ultimately, it doesn't have to always be a really crisp articulation of a particular sentence. It's great when it is that, because it's easy to access. But what's way more important is, do we understand the feeling data that we need to pay attention to? Do we understand those kind of three aspects? Because when, when we do that, when we've uncovered that, and we're paying attention to those things, all of a sudden, we see more than we did before, and then you start to move into that. Well, how do we wrestle now with what, what this is telling us about where we are on our journey and the journey that we want to go on? So we've either been a successful organization up until this point, or we've had moments of success and difficulty, or organization that maybe feels like we're in decline wherever they are on, that that kind of change curve, having done this initial piece of work that then becomes the opportunity to sit and go all right, what do we what? Where are the tensions that we need to hold here? Where are the choices and the decisions that we need to make and make differently to the ones that we have done before? Because all of a sudden, now we have a frame, we have a scaffold to put around the journey that we are we're about to go on. So there's this kind of critical moment of understanding, really, which, which shapes then two things. So understanding leads into then the kind of the third phase, which is really unleashing the sense of purpose within and without your organization. And for me, that comes down to two things, one, the environment that you create within your organization for your people to be able to make a contribution that feels meaningful to them, because the second that they do that they feel value and self worth, and the the multiplier effect across your organization when individuals are feeling like that becomes transformative. So there's something about understanding and acknowledging the environment that you create. And then the second element of that is, well, where are you focused now? What are you going after? What is the ambition here? What might be possible for you, and how does that inform the choices you make around strategy? How does that inform the goals that you now see possible over the course of the next, you know, three horizons within your organization that becomes a very different conversation for businesses than the ones that that maybe is, how do we extrapolate out from where we are? Or how do we envisage what the market may be doing and shifting in, you know, 20 years time? And how do we respond to that? It's, how do we go into markets that we've never been to before? What are some of the things we've never even considered going after? And we know that it's true to who we are and the capability that maybe we have or need to build, because it feels unique to the contribution we can make.

Jean Gomes:

Bringing it back to the work that you do with individuals, part of what you do is these immersion retreats in a very beautiful part of the world, the Peak District, which I know I've just been to and had an amazing time. There. Can you tell us about what you do in these retreats to bring help people bring clarity to their lives?

James Glover:

Yeah, so one of the commitments I made to myself when starting to do this work is that whether I work with individuals, whether I work with leaders, whether I work with teams in organizations that they need to have the time and space to be able to consider the reality of what we've discussed, this isn't, this isn't a 90 minute lunch and learn. This isn't a, you know, half a day in a broader program, or, you know, if, if the stars align an entire day of a broader program, it has to be something that is given the right level of commitment. Because if it's not, you won't get to the depth. And if you don't get to the depth, then it becomes a superficial exercise, which doesn't stand the test of time. And by. Test of time. I mean the fact that the second that you share and put purpose into the world, you then need to have a level of rigor about how you stand behind it, because you are inviting scrutiny. So if you don't have the time and space to do it properly, you won't stand the scrutiny, and it will fall over. So that makes that makes life really hard. Because, you know, time scarce for for people, I say it makes life hard. It makes life hard for me, I have to work harder to make sure that you kind of get people into those into those environments, but once you have them there in those environments to be able to create a space that allows them to to pause, pause the noise, pause the interference, to be able to reconnect to themself fully, so being able to create space in the brain, so cerebrally, not feeling themselves pulled in multiple different directions within their body, feeling a bit of stability and calm, In order to be able to just see and explore more things. So within our immersion immersive experiences, we are cultivating an environment that allows people to pay attention to more things than they would normally, in the work environment or in their day to day. It allows them to become far more resourceful, because we are thinking about their capacity as well as their capability. So we have an in house, Michelin trained chef. We have a beautiful location that makes people feel safe and comfortable, but is deeply centered in nature so they feel grounded and peaceful. We have an embodiment coach. This, this, this individual, who's a member of our team, is one of the most decorated physiotherapists in Olympic sporting and the sporting environment, and she retrained herself during the during covid to create an entirely new type of physiotherapy, which is, how do I treat people without putting my hands on them, by helping them go into a place of deep embodiment so they can start to heal themselves. So she helps us create an environment where people are experiencing this again, not just in their head, but in their heart and soul too. All with the principle that if we can create a Merci, an immersive experience where people can see, feel, think things differently, that the way in which we can support them from that place onward means that they can really go after the to coin a Jean gomezism, the hard part of the hard problem, when they leave that place and they are inviting the scrutiny of their partner, who goes, What's this wishy washy bobbins you've been doing for the last three days, they can deal with the first line of scrutiny, which is just, how do I talk to my partner about this? Then into their team, then into their organization. Without that, without that. You know, I've universally seen it, where people have felt, felt an inspiration that's died really quickly.

Sara Deschamps:

If the conversations we've been having on the evolving leader have helped you in any way, please head over to Apple podcasts and leave us a rating and review. Thank you for listening. Now let's get back to the conversation.

Jean Gomes:

So a really great way into learning more about you and your work where you're not talking so much is couldn't resist. It is excitable. So podcast, can you recommend that you know, like, one or two of the shows that you think would be the best to get a starting point of your

James Glover:

your work, even after that Barb, I would recommend the one that Jean is on well. So in all seriousness, I think there are, there are probably, there are probably three or four that I could elevate really quickly above the 25 odd. You know, we've not been going that long. I think we're almost just about to celebrate our first year. If people are interested in understanding more about me and what makes me tick. The first episode, I invite my sister to ask me the questions that I then bring on everybody else. I love it, and my brother is actually an episode that's kind of further along. So you get a real sense of who we are and what shaped who we are in the world. If you're interested in the kind of provocation around the ideas and the thinking. Then there is a gentleman called Pierre vistraten who his just soulful wisdom around his journey and search for kind of meaning and purpose and how that shaped who he is. In the middle of some very, very confronting life experiences, far more than anything I've ever faced is deeply compelling. There's a practitioner perspective, Sammy Burt, she's she lives and breathes purpose, and she brings a kind of a playful experience to to the work that she does around this. And I think is She's a real, a joy to listen to and be Inspire. For those that are compelled to try and explore a bit of this, and also just for your listeners, I think them hearing from you in a way that is different, not you being the subject of Max matter expert and the thought leader, which you undoubtedly are, but actually sharing the experiences that have shaped who you are and how you inform those things because of that journey, I think would be a real gift for them. And hold on team. Scott is is his podcast is about to be launched soon as well, and we'll probably be live by the time this is live too. So there's a few for people to go after. Brilliant.

Jean Gomes:

Well, I think that's a great summary of the shows, because I've listened to all of them, and I totally agree with that. So we run to the end of our time. I know we could talk a lot longer. I know you could.

James Glover:

I genuinely have learned how to listen way way harder and way deeper being a positive, wonderful

Jean Gomes:

watching you doing that. See the battery going down,

James Glover:

I like to think it's the positive opposite Jean, the positive opposite. There's a there's a recovery element to it.

Jean Gomes:

I can't resist teasing you because, because James is such as an incredibly positive, fun person, I take great delight in trying to wipe the opposite direction.

James Glover:

Keep me grounded, right? Jean,

Jean Gomes:

not at all. I love you. You know that. So listeners, this brings us to the end of our time. Really recommend that you listen to the excitable soul. Take a look at James's podcast and actually consider whether being part of one of these retreats, which you know, having talked to several people have been on them, are literally life changing. And yeah, that's it for now. Looking forward to tuning in soon with you, and remember, the world is evolving. Are you? You?

People on this episode

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Jean Gomes

Co-host
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Scott Allender

Co-host