Becoming a Culture Leader with Jessica Kriegel

In this week’s episode of The Evolving Leader, co-hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are in conversation with Dr Jessica Kriegel. Jessica is Chief Scientist of Workplace Culture at Culture Partners where she leads groundbreaking research, strategy and innovation alongside institutions like Stanford University. Jessica is one of the few women in her space uncovering the uncharted territories of culture and leadership. As a single parent, she is also a fierce advocate for women in the workplace and designing a job that works for you—not a job you work for.

Jessica’s groundbreaking research is detailed in her debut book “Unfairly Labeled,” a manifesto for equality and transformation in the modern workplace and disrupting the narrative that Baby Boomers and Gen Z are misaligned in the workplace. It is her mission to dispel the stereotype that unfairly labels workers today.  She is also host of the podcast Culture Leaders (on which Jean Gomes was a recent guest), a show about how change catches fire for real transformation.

Referenced during this episode:
Unfairly Labeled: How Your Workplace Can Benefit From Ditching Generational Stereotypes (Wiley, 2016)

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)

The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)


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The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 5:26 What is your assessment of the climate and factors shaping the mindset and culture of organisations you’re working for?
• 6:54 What’s the difference between the noise and the signal?
• 8:39 How do you define culture and why does it matter?
• 11:03 How might an organisation better understand how their people are thinking and acting and how would you work with them?
• 14:37 You have written ‘I don’t want loyal employees on my team’. Can you talk to us about that?
• 17:49 Employees might feel resentment and guilt when they’re in an unhealthy relationship with a company. How do you break the cycle for leaders to stop falling into that trap?
• 20:24 Where else do you see that leaders need to be more transparent?
• 23:08 What other factors go into helping people care?
• 27:31 Can you tell us about some of the things that you do and are most proud of in terms of operationalising this belief shift at scale?
• 30:25 In your work, what is the role that emotions play in influencing how people think and act, and do leaders need to pay attention to that?
• 34:26 How do you think AI is going to shape culture?
• 37:04 What do you think in terms of how organisations figure out the intergenerational challenge?
• 39:49 Is the real issue that older people sometimes forget what it’s like to be 25, and that’s the dynamic that is often played out, and then you look for reasons to justify that?
• 42:43 What do you think are the most important mindsets that leaders need to build in the future? What do they need to lean into that they are avoiding right now?
• 47:08 What’s the best way for people to contact you?
• 47:46 What’s next for you?

Transcript

Jean Gomes: 0:03

The assumption that technological advances equal human progress lies at the heart of what's driven capitalism. Of course, there's so much to celebrate. For example, our ability to meet COVID head on, not just with the incredible vaccine development, but also being able to harness video calls to keep a global workforce operating shows the tremendous upside. But what if the less fashionable downsides, we'll get to call the shots in the coming decade. Research by MIT professors, Darren asa mcglue And Simon Johnson highlight that the assumption of progress equaling human advancement is far from being always true. In fact, the benefits in recent decades are now occurring to an ever smaller part of society, as are good jobs that provide the needs for a good life fast becoming accessible only to those with the best education. These underlying costs are shifting the social dynamic towards a more polarized society, and ultimately, workplace. In this show, we talk to the workplace culture expert, Dr. Jessica creakle, about what she's observing as more workers are becoming frustrated with the deal that work offers them, and what organizations can do about it. To rapidly get ahead of this huge strategic leadership challenge before he gets to define their future in limiting way, tune in to an important conversation at the evolving leader.

Scott Allender: 1:57

Hey, folks, welcome to the evolving leader, the show born from the belief that we need deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to confront our biggest challenges. I'm Scott Allender, co host of the show along with Jean Gomes. And in each episode of the evolving leader, we speak with guests at the top of their fields, in order to better understand the problems we face and the opportunities that lie before us. We talked with neuroscientists and psychologists and coaches of elite sport athletes, entrepreneurs, thought leaders, researchers and many more, whose work pushes us to think about an approach to our leadership in a different and a more comprehensive way. So we've got another great guest on the show today. But before we get into it, Jean, my friend, how are you feeling today?

Jean Gomes: 2:41

I am feeling in need of a holiday, which is fortunate because I'm just about to take one. It's been brilliant this week, I've felt like I've broken some new ground in a few areas. I've had some great conversations with our research and academic partners. So that's been brilliant. And I am really feeling like I need some deep rest and renewal. So yeah, how you feeling?

Scott Allender: 3:04

Well, I do feel like I'm in the need of a holiday, but I haven't been booked. So if you want to take me on yours, I'm game. I I'm feeling I'm feeling I'm feeling nice and settled. Now today I had a week of of kind of high pressure and competing demands, but all good stuff. But I was a little bit distracted coming into the morning. And now that we're rounding the corner into Friday afternoon, I feel really, really settled and I'm really eager to talk to our guests today. I know we're both very familiar with her work, and today we're talking talking with Dr. Jessica Kriegel, chief scientist of workplace culture at culture partners. Jessica is a regular media contributor, her work being featured on CNBC, MSNBC, CNN, NBC Fox Business, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes and many more. And as a member of the executive team at culture partners, she leads groundbreaking research, Strategy and Innovation alongside institutions like Stanford University, culture partners is reshaping the DNA of fortune 500 companies to increase revenue, drive sales and ensure retention. Her research is detailed in her debut book unfairly labeled a manifesto for equality and transformation in the modern workplace, and a disruption of the narrative that Baby Boomers and Gen Z are misaligned in the workplace. It is her mission to dispel the stereotypes. She is also host of the show culture leaders uncovering the magic behind the masters of movements, a show about how change catches fire for real transformation. Jessica, welcome to the evolving leader.

Jessica Kriegel: 4:39

Thank you for having me. And thank you to Jean for coming to be a guest on culture leaders, our podcast you were one of my favorite guests ever. So this is just so wonderful to be able to now be a guest of yours.

Jean Gomes: 4:51

Well, I am very grateful for you returning the favor. I really enjoyed that conversation. But let's start with Jessica How you feeling today?

Jessica Kriegel: 5:00

I'm feeling pretty good. I am babysitting my neighbor's dog. And it feels nice to be a good neighbor and to do good things for each other. And I just, you know, dogs bring me joy. So today, it's been a day of playful puffiness. So what can possibly go wrong? See, but I'm sure it's wonderful. Right now they're locked out of my office. So it could be going horribly wrong right now.

Jean Gomes: 5:26

So could we start with a bit of a State of the Nation, given the vast range of unsettling uncertain things that are happening in the world right now? What's your assessment of the climate and factors shaping the mindset and culture of organizations you're working for? I know, that's a very big question. But I'd love to, to kind of get a big kind of sense of what you're seeing out there.

Jessica Kriegel: 5:44

Viva la revolution. That's the state of the nation. As far as I can tell, right now, we are in the midst of a shift. And you're seeing a lot of people having had it with the status quo of corporate America and being interested in something different happening. And so you're seeing increased anti work, sentiment, increased unionization, more noise on tick tock that is directing people's ire towards their managers. And I've noticed in the media, when I get called now to go on any of these national networks, often the story that they're reporting on is something went viral on Tiktok. Let's discuss. So these tick tock posts may seem like a Gen Z trend, but actually people are listening and they're paying attention. I think that's why you have all of these insane trends, quiet, quitting, and, you know, quit talkers. And all those things are getting people's attention, and they're being reported on so that noise is making a difference. And I think it's good. I think if you want to hold people accountable leaders, in particular, as you said, in your intro, they're starting to have to be held accountable. The noise and the signals? Tell me what you mean by signals?

Jean Gomes: 6:59

Well, I mean, the noise is kind of like all of that stuff on tick tock about, you know, like people venting, but what's actually going on underneath that, what do you think are the real key things that people are experiencing? That's meaning they want to vent like that?

Jessica Kriegel: 7:11

Well, I don't know that things have changed at an economic level or in the labor market yet, but what you're seeing is free market capitalism at work in the workplace. So there is no longer a market for jobs with crappy culture. And people are saying, I don't want to work in a culture where my manager treats me like crap. And they're posting about when that's happening. And so that is, that is what free market capitalism is. And so then you see a lot of people railing against this sentiment saying, Oh, how dare these people say something about that they don't want to pay their dues. And isn't that frustrating. And we wish that they would just work. People don't want to work anymore. Those narratives are true, we have very low unemployment, right? People do want to work, they just don't want to work in a culture that makes them feel the way that they're currently feeling. And so they're speaking up against that. So I don't know what's noise and what signals yet I mean, I don't think anything has shifted at a level where it's necessarily different yet, but it's coming. It's very clearly coming, the noise is turning into signals, right. And I don't know how long that's going to take. I mean, all it would take was one big movement, right? So a national strike, if these unions all gather together and do a national strike at the same time, suddenly, that becomes a crisis. And now we have potentially overnight change. So who knows if that will happen, or when that will happen? But I'm paying attention?

Scott Allender: 8:39

Can we zoom out and get a bit of a definition around culture? I mean, it feels like one of those things that, you know, the implicate, the understanding is sort of implied, but I know, in some conversations I'm having, I feel like people approach it very differently in terms of, you know, what is it why it matters? How do we actually change it? You know, Do I feel like the work we're doing here is important. That's purpose do I feel like they think I'm an integral part of that that's communication? Do they feel like do they like me? Do they trust me? Do I think that I'm fulfilling my own personal goals? Whatever they are in, am I able to do that here? Those are all beliefs that drive our action at work. So If you want to change people's beliefs about I give a shit or I don't give a shit, you have to create experiences for them because all of our beliefs come from experiences. And so what experiences are you creating for your employees that are driving you either the right beliefs or the wrong beliefs. So, to go a little bit deeper into our process, you know, first we figure out results, then we get alignment on that. And then we figure out what beliefs currently are getting in the way of us achieving those results. And we I identify that there may be beliefs that are holding us back. And then we ask the even more powerful question, what do we want those beliefs to be? Then we can identify specific beliefs that we want to intentionally nurture. And then we create experiences that will nurture those beliefs. And we do it at scale. That's culture creation, inaction, right. I mean, that's actually the lever to change culture is by changing beliefs, and that will get you the right action. And that will get you results and the clients that we work with over time, get it the culture equals results. And then they become culture believers, as opposed to the people out there who think it's about kumbaya circles, and even leadership retreats, right. Like the most common tool to transform culture for an educated leader is a leadership retreat, you get everyone together, you go to Napa, pay for a hot air balloon ride. For those who are interested, you have a boondoggle with a bunch of booze, you talk about strategy, you do your Myers Briggs or whatever. And somehow that's supposed to make people feel closer, and then something something something profit, but what happens is you get a three day high from that leadership retreat, and then you go back to work, and everything is pretty much the same as it always was. People forget what their MBTI was, they forget what their strengths finder was, at least I forget what other peoples are. I know what mine are, but I don't remember what yours is. And so how does that actually change how we think and act at work? It doesn't, right.

Emma Sinclair: 26:58

Hi, this is Emma Sinclair, business psychologist, occasional co host and fan of The Evolving Leader podcast. There are now over 100 episodes with an incredible list of guests, encompassing a broad range of disciplines, all handpicked by us to help you, our audience, understand and overcome your greatest leadership challenges. We have so much more to come. So wherever you get your podcasts, please subscribe, share rate and review. Now, let's get back to the conversation.

Jean Gomes: 27:31

So you talked about like, at scale, and you know, creating movements is really important in your work and research, we talk about some of the things that you do in that area, and that you're most proud of, in terms of operationalizing, this belief shift at scale.

Jessica Kriegel: 27:47

Yeah. So the work that I'm most proud of is the work where the purpose of the organization is something that I personally believe is important, right? So when I'm working with a client that has a mission statement that feels like it makes the world a better place, then I get excited about that one of the organizations that we're currently working with is one of the states department of corrections. And so these leaders came in and said, we're getting the following results. And those results look like deaths of inmates and of the correctional officers safety issues. You know, those are the kinds of results that they're trying to shift the trend to literally save lives. And so they did our process for it's let's get clarity on the results that we're trying to achieve. What number do you want that death level to be? You know, how many deaths are you comfortable with having in this organization by the end of the year? And this, whatever the number is, it's lower than what it is now, right? And then we say, great, so what would need to shift in order for those results? What beliefs are currently getting in the way of us achieving those results? And what do we need them to be? They became very intentional about cultural beliefs that they wanted to achieve. I mean, they literally came up with cultural belief statements. And then we did training with all of the correctional officers and all of the managers around what experiences can we create to nurture those beliefs as opposed to the old beliefs that were getting us the old results, and that happens at scale, and you're starting to see a shift in that organization, and it feels like I'm actually helping the world be a better place. That's, that's really important. You know, I have other clients that I work with, that are building weapons less exciting for me, you know, and yet, they're still able to create results. So you asked me what makes me feel like I'm making a difference. It's when I write my purpose Alliance, which, frankly, is actually a great interview tool. Not that you asked me this question, but whenever I'm interviewing someone for my team, the first question I ask is, what is your personal purpose? And then I tell them what our organizational purposes, which is to unleash the power of culture To inspire people in organizations to reach their full potential. And then I asked them, Do you see a way in which you can fulfill your personal purpose by helping us achieve that organizational purpose? And if so, how? And now they're tying, connecting the dots to what they want to accomplish for themselves and what we're doing here. And they can either feel like it ties or it doesn't. And if it doesn't tie, it's not a good fit. And culture fit isn't a thing. Purpose fit is totally a thing.

Jean Gomes: 30:25

Yeah. I can't think of how few companies just do that that simple conversation to start things off, I mean, that that's a brilliant start to a relationship.

Jessica Kriegel: 30:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Allender: 30:36

I'm curious because I love this. Your no fluff approach to culture, and cutting through all the the sort of BS around the sort of kumbaya moments and things. And it's really about how people think, and act. And underneath that is the sort of alignment to belief and purpose. But knowing that it's not about creating, feel good moments, I am curious, in your work, and in your view, what you think the role of emotions play in influencing how people think and act? And how do leaders do meet IT leaders need to pay attention to that? And if so, how do they pay attention to how people are actually feeling in the work that they do?

Jessica Kriegel: 31:19

Oh, now we're getting into the soup. I love the soup, because it's where things are confusing and complicated. And I don't know even know if I agree with myself. So this is my personal belief about emotions is that feelings are not facts. And I have lived a life for many, many years where I thought feelings were facts. And if I had a feeling, I trusted that the feeling I had was the reality I was experiencing. And it took me, you know, some life experiences and a big jump in my own evolution, spiritual evolution, I guess, to figure out that that was wrong. So I mean, I think there are people out there in your workplace that believe that feelings are facts, and then there are people who believe that feelings are not facts. And, you know, my belief is that feelings are not facts. So let me just start with that, that makes this really complicated. Because if I believe that feelings are facts, and you give me a piece of feedback, and I feel attacked, and feelings are facts, then you're attacking me, how dare you, right. And now I don't trust you as a leader. Now, I have had that feeling many, many times where I've been given feedback, and I felt attacked, and then I demonized the person giving me the feedback. Now, looking back, I actually know that I have a hard time receiving feedback because of criticism I got when I was a little kid all the time. And so when I hear feedback, I'm hearing what's wrong with you, something's wrong with you. And so then it kind of stings in a way that may not be reality. In that moment, I might have a manager who cares a lot about me that's giving me feedback in the hopes that I will get better. But that's not the way I'm I'm feeling I'm feeling like this jerk is attacking me, right. So that makes it really interesting to engage in the workplace. Because we have this bizarre relationship with work where it's business, not personal. And yet, it's now becoming personal. And people are trying to make people be more personal at work. I mean, five years ago, no one was allowed to talk about mental health with their employees. And now, we're encouraging people to talk about mental health with their employees, and no one is equipped to do that. And so we're having very confusing conversations. And I actually think it's pretty counterproductive, the way that HR has been advancing this bring your whole self to work campaign that people have embraced, because it sounds really good. And, you know, I would love to bring my whole self to work, as well, theoretically, until I realized that my whole self may be a career limiting move in the environment that I'm at, based on the spiritual evolution of the people that I work with, and that are making decisions about my career and my salary. So emotions make all of this more complicated. And that's why I don't think culture is about emotions. And I think if you think culture is about domain of emotions, then everything you do is a temporary fix to a larger underlying issue about the way that we think and act work.

Scott Allender: 34:26

So talk to me about the role of AI how how do you think AI? is going to shape culture and what's happening sort of, for better or worse at the moment? What do you seen in that space?

Jessica Kriegel: 34:39

Well, first, I think that anyone who says they know how AI is going to change the future of work is lying, and they're trying to sell you something because nobody knows just like we had no idea how the inner internet would create influencer culture. I mean, the implications of AI are so beyond the what we can fathom right now. I mean, I would ask AI that like, how are you going to change the future for AI, see what it says might say something interesting. What I do believe is something I heard somewhere. And I can't attribute this quote to someone because they don't remember. But it's not going to change why we work. But it will change how we work, I think deep down as people, we all want to be useful. At some level, we want to accomplish something and advance the ball forward in some way. And so I think that underlying desire to be useful and to work is still going to be there, the way that we work is going to drastically change. I can tell you, I'm interested in the Accenture research on this right now, where they're talking about, at least for the short term, what will happen is, job roles will disintegrate. And we will narrow down what we're doing at work into job tasks. And then those job tasks may get reorganized and create brand new roles that didn't exist. So an example the way that I kind of imagined this is you have some kind of individual contributor, low level employee in marketing, and another one in finance, and another one in sales ops, and maybe all those people become one person who's doing whatever those low level tasks are across the board. So you don't need as many people doing the less heavy work. You know, for example, I also follow Dr. Lisa Palmer on all of her work around AI, she has really interesting insights about the way that industry will change. And that, you know, her theory is big tech is gonna take over every single industry. And you know, your future car will be made by Mehta, not Ford, because Mehta is going to figure out how to streamline manufacturing processes, and they're going to figure out, you know, all sorts of things that Ford will be so far behind on that they're going to be able to take over every industry. And I can't imagine that that's good for anyone, frankly. So, you know, at an emotional level, I'm scared. And at an intellectual level, I'm very curious.

Jean Gomes: 37:04

I'm guessing we've got three, three generations on the school. That what do you think in terms of you know, how you're seeing, getting Boomers to Gen Z, and then beyond how you thinking about that and helping organizations to figure out this intergenerational challenge?

Jessica Kriegel: 37:24

Well, I think the entire idea of generational differences is the fabrication of the media that is not based on any real research, but as rather clickbait and stereotyping unconscious bias. So the data does not support the differences that we claim exist between the different generations. And that's what my first book was about unfairly labeled as we are unfairly labeled, just as Gen Zers, are unfairly labeled as add kids who are entitled and lazy baby boomers are unfairly labeled as having more work ethic, but also not being tech savvy. I mean, so many of these things are already. Exactly, it doesn't feel good, does it? No. And what's funny, what's funny about this is we are also basing those labels on middle income white Americans, right? When you think of a millennial, you're thinking of a middle income white American person, you're not thinking of the actual diversity that exists in the millennial population. And what this actually goes back to what I was saying earlier about experiences, shaping beliefs, what creates the values and beliefs of a generation, or not this 20 year wide age bracket that they happen to have been falling within? And, you know, oh, they all experienced 911 When they were going into college, therefore, they're more patriotic or less patriotic, because I've seen both headlines, right? That's not it. It's how were you raised? What was your family? Like? Did you go to church or not? What kind of school were you in? Were you bullied? Those are the experiences that create our beliefs. And I mean, I've been saying this for 10 years, we have to stop saying millennial stop saying Gen Z, or it's just a counterproductive way of making decisions at work. And it isolates us we don't actually see each other because we see these labels. And I mean, I can tell you 10 different stats that debunks the typical stereotypes about each generation, including loyalty to your employers. It's not actually lower for millennials than it is for baby boomers, even though it looks like it is it's not, you know, tech savviness. Well, millennials are maybe more likely to have their phone by their head at night, but they're not more likely to adopt technology at work than a baby boomer workplace technology. Adoption is the same across every generation. So the way we take these stereotypes and turn them into decisions at work can be very dangerous for results.

Jean Gomes: 39:49

I'm totally with you. I couldn't agree more with with that position and how you outlined it in your book. And I think the thing that you know, I wonder whether you agree with this or not, but the real issue Is that in the perennial problem is that, you know, people in their 50s 60s or, you know, maybe younger, just forget what it's like to be 25. And that's that dynamic that often gets played out. And then you look for reasons to to kind of justify that, you know, not getting it.

Jessica Kriegel: 40:19

Totally. Yeah, so let me actually share the stat about workplace loyalty. So the Employee Benefits Research Institute measures loyalty at work, and people who are 25 to 35 years old, their average tenure at their workplace is three years long. And then people 55 to 65 year old, their average tenure is 10 years long. So that's what people see, they read that headline, and they talk about loyalty is, you know, higher for baby boomers. But the Employee Benefits Research Institute has been doing that study for 60 years, and 60 years ago, the numbers were exactly the same. So the baby boomers when they were 25, they had less loyalty. So this is not a generational thing. It's a life stage thing. And it's interesting because I wrote this book 10 years ago, and now I'm getting to the age where I'm, like, those darn Gen Z are like, I see the impulse in myself to judge and berate the younger generations for their behavior, because it's not like mine, right. And I'm totally susceptible to this just like everyone else's, I think it's a natural human tendency, Socrates 2500 years ago, is quoted as saying, the younger generation today, value chatter and luxury instead of hard work. I mean, this is a tale as old as time the complaints haven't even changed. It's the same complaints. So we have to overcome our own unconscious bias. It is age, ism, hiding in a socially acceptable generational label. And we have to stop seeing it as socially acceptable. I mean, we've done this with race, we've done this with gender, we now know, it would not be okay to say, you know, here's five tips for managing your black employees. Right. But I do see five tips for managing your Gen Z employees everywhere. And it's like, why can we say one but not the other? Because we've had enough conversations about race to know it's not acceptable, still happens, happens all the time, right? The stereotypes exist in many people's minds and hearts. And that, that creates all sorts of problems, especially in the workplace. But we haven't even gotten to the level of awareness when it comes to generations that this might be a problematic label to use.

Jean Gomes: 42:43

So I'm wondering, you know, as you think about going into the future, what do you think are the most important mindsets that leaders need to build in the future? What do you think they might need to really lean into that they're avoiding right now?

Jessica Kriegel: 42:59

Number one, is accountability. Because we have made that a bad word accountability is viewed as you know, who's at fault for this, who, whose head is on a stick for this mistake. And, and so leaders are reluctant to hold their employees accountable, because it's become weaponized. And they're afraid that if they hold their employees accountable, the the employees will react negatively, they'll retaliate, they'll leave they they won't want to be held accountable. So you're seeing a lack of courageous leadership, because accountability isn't just hard. For those who are being held accountable. It's hard for those having to hold others accountable. And now we get this lack of accountability loop. So accountability is number one. And that has to do with reframing the way you think about accountability to be the definition I shared earlier, which is a personal choice to focus on what you can control and take the steps necessary to drive key results. So here's a tool. If you're a leader, this is the you know, your one takeaway for this podcast that you can start implementing tomorrow. It's a four question framework for anyone who comes into your office or calls you on a phone or zooms and has a problem or is complaining about something. And they're feeling like, oh, this is you know, I can't get this done. Or this is frustrating, or there's some kind of problem. You can see it, own it, solve it do it is this four step process to get people to not be empowered, but for them to take their own accountability, and you're just guiding them towards the personal choice to take accountability. So see it, you'd let them vent? What's going on? That's the first question what's going on? And then they talk about what's going on, and then own it. So then you say, what about that? Can you control and get them to narrow their thinking on to the thing that they can influence as opposed to all of the things that they disagree with that are beyond their control? And then you ask them solve it. What else could you try? And if they can't come up with anything You can say, Well, if your life depended on it, what else could you do? And you get them to brainstorm within what's in their control what they can do about this problem that they brought to you. So that see it, own it, solve it, and then do it is the last step. Okay, what are you going to do by when. So they've identified the problem, they've identified what they can control about the problem. They brainstormed what is within their control that they can actually do. And then they've identified what they're going to do by when. And you've just coached them through taking accountability, and making a difference, that personal choice and you didn't give them any answers to the test. You just asked? Coaching Questions. That's how you drive accountability at work.

Jean Gomes: 45:37

Excellent. I'm gonna be role modeling that with Scott, for the next month.

Jessica Kriegel: 45:43

Excellent. Yeah.

Scott Allender: 45:45

I need it.

Jean Gomes: 45:46

Every time you complain Scott, I'm gonna be saying.

Jessica Kriegel: 45:52

Well do it with your kids. I mean, I have a seven year old daughter, right? Like I do it with my daughter all the time. What's going on? What about that kinky you control? What else could you try? What are you going to do by wet and then she figures it out and she feels so much better it feels speaking about feelings, it feels good to take accountability more than it does to be the victim. And, and just to be clear, everyone plays the victim. Sometimes that's also a natural human tendency. And it's not problematic in and of itself. It is a problem to get stuck there. And those four questions that tool of see you don't it's all to do it, it helps people get unstuck.

Jean Gomes: 46:29

Yeah, no, thank you know, you. It's implicit in what you're saying is that this is self questioning as much as is helping others. Yeah,

Jessica Kriegel: 46:36

totally. It's hard to remember that you're being a victim when you're the one being the victim, though, at least.

Scott Allender: 46:42

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I talked to people all the time that, you know, they don't their leaders that they they they externalize the problems that are experiencing on the team, right? They don't tend to look and say, How am I contributing to the negative culture elements that I don't want to create? So that level of sort of self honesty and self Inquisition is is really brilliant? How can what's the best way for people to contact you I imagine we have leaders listening right now going, I want to do some of this work. I really want to I want to get with Jessica, I'm gonna get with her team, what's the best way to sort of connect with you?

Jessica Kriegel: 47:20

So my website is Jessicakriegel.com. And then I'm the chief scientist at Culture Partners and Culture Partners does the consulting work in the workshops around accountability and things like that, and that's culturepartners.com. Or you can watch our podcast Culture Leaders, you can go on LinkedIn and check out my newsletter, which comes out every Friday called This Week in Culture.

Jean Gomes: 47:46

What's next for you?

Jessica Kriegel: 47:48

What is next? For me? That's a good question. I mean, I heard something a long time ago, which is the you know, you make a plan and God laughs kind of like that. I gave up on a five year plan a long time ago, when I realized that none of my five year plans ever came to fruition. I I'm in Divinity School right now. And so I'm really enjoying everything that I'm learning there and applying what I'm learning there to the work that I'm doing. And so I don't know, you tell me maybe AI has the answer. Let's ask Chad GPT. That's not not? Yeah.

Jean Gomes: 48:24

Excellent. Well, Jessica, this has been an as I knew it would be having been on the receiving end of your questions. This has been an absolute delight. And I love the clarity that you bring to this topic, the pragmatism and the clarity you bring to it and I'm sure that people have got tremendous amount out of our hour together. Yeah.

Jessica Kriegel: 48:42

Well thank you so much for having me. It was so fun in a total joy, and I'm honored that you invited me so it's been a pleasure.

Scott Allender: 48:50

Thank you and to our listeners. remember until next time, the world is evolving. Are you?