The Evolving Leader

How to Live Future Ready with Frederik Pferdt

• Frederik Pferdt • Season 6 • Episode 25

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In this episode of The Evolving Leader, Sara Deschamps facilitates a fascinating conversation between Evolving Leader co-host Jean Gomes and author and Google's first and former Chief innovation evangelist Frederik G. Pferdt. Frederik is on a mission to empower everyone to fulfil their visions for the future from shaping Google’s fabled creative culture as Chief Innovation Evangelist to nurturing the minds of students at Stanford University’s Hasso Plattner Institute of Design where he teaches graduate courses such as ‘Hacking Your Innovation Mindset’.

Frederik’s book ‘What’s Next Is Now, How To Live Future Ready’ was published by Harper Collins in 2024.

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)
The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)

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The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

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Scott Allender:

is the future in your hands? And do you feel in control of your life? And yet, instead of focusing on what we don't control, and often trading away our personal power in the process, what if we double down on what we can control? What if we believe in the possibility that we have more power to shape our future than we often give ourselves credit for? That's what today's show is all about. Jean and Frederik Pferdt Google's first innovation evangelists are interviewed by our colleague Sara, about their shared interest, and how we can build a future facing mindset as our superpower to realise our future. Let's listen in on a great conversation.

Sara Deschamps:

When we started talking to Frederik Pferdt, about his new book, what's next is now he suggested a conversation with John, in which we brought John's ideas together with Frederik's to create an expansive moment. Let's jump in. Frederik G. Pferdt, is on a mission to empower everyone to fulfil their visions for the future. From shaping Google's fabled creative culture as their first Chief Innovation evangelist, to nurturing students minds at Stanford University's Hasso Plattner Institute of Design, Frederik has a mission to help others realise their creative superpower to imagine and invent a better tomorrow. Frederik Jean, welcome to the evolving leader. How are you feeling?

Frederik Pferdt:

Thank you, Sara, for having me. And thank you, Jean, as well. How am I feeling? I'm feeling grateful, yes. Grateful to spend time with you.

Jean Gomes:

I'm feeling similarly grateful. I've really enjoyed all the conversations leading up to this with Frederik. And I'm feeling very expensive at the moment as a result of that. So yeah, let's looking forward to this conversation.

Sara Deschamps:

Thank you both. And I'm feeling very open today and perhaps curious. So Frederik, maybe we can start with your time at Google and get a sense of what you were doing there and maybe a bit of what you learnt?

Frederik Pferdt:

Yeah, that's a great question. To start with. Maybe we can also expand on that why I actually left? Because that's the question I get a lot from people as well. So, you know, I spend over a decade I think it was 12 and a half years in total at Google, it was a wonderful time, I have to say it was probably one of the best times I had in a corporate environment. And so really, what I try to do is I helped build a creative culture, you know, where innovation is not just allowed, but actively encouraged and celebrated. Or, and I started by actually training people's minds, and afterwards built environments where these brilliant minds could not just think of ideas, but really make them a reality. And so, I learned a couple of things that I learned a tonne, actually, you know, and I don't think we have the time to go into detail of all of my learnings. But I learned very early on by actually, I think I visited 26 offices in my first year at Google, just to understand how innovation happens and how people come up with these brilliant ideas and how they make these a reality. And I learned that it's really about three things. It's about empathy. It's about expansive thinking, and it's about experimentation. So I package those things up and try to really train everyone in those things, to really be more empathetic to you know, think more expansively we call the 10x thinking and experiment. And, you know, I really learned that it's not about innovation. It's not about resources, right? You can throw a lot of money at people and you know, they might not a single idea actually, you know, see, see the light and it's also not about Time, right, that's an excuse a lot of people have, it's really about where people's minds are at. And so that's what I tried to focus on really helping to train people's minds. And then building environments where I what I like to call it, where I remove the friction from having an idea to building it. Places like the Google garage, where we just, you know, experimented with lots of ideas or, or other environments. I think I even got a bus for for the, for the office where we could, you know, spend time to, while being on the road to create ideas and test them out and so forth. So that was that was some some of the learnings I had and what I tried to do at Google. Yeah. And perhaps

Sara Deschamps:

you can address why you left.

Frederik Pferdt:

Yes. So it was really, it's now coming up two years. And it was an incredible day was a Friday was sunny, I had my wife actually come to the office too. So we had a lunch. And, you know, I said goodbye to my friends to my team and, and colleagues. And then I closed the door behind me not knowing really what's going to happen next. But I had this deep belief that, you know, I was working at one of the most innovative companies in the world had a tremendous, rewarding job, kind of like being the chief innovation evangelist. So what I wanted really to do is, is live on my own terms at my own time, and at my own pace, to bring all these things that I've learned to a lot of people in the world, right, because I felt I felt very fortunate and very, very lucky to be in that in that position and with those people. But I also felt a responsibility to bring it to other people so that they can build the future and build, you know, innovative ideas and so forth. And I, I left on that day, again, on that sunny day with my wife, I left with a smile, because I really was, you know, opening myself up for for the future, and at the same time owning my future, as well, as I chose to, you know, take that step outside of this comfort zone that I was in for 12 and a half years to really go into into something uncomfortable, which, you know, I didn't know a lot about. And, you know, it was a, it was a it was a good feeling overall.

Sara Deschamps:

And I think, Frederik you start your book, actually by talking about the ambiguity and the uncertainty in the future. And I think you say in your book, because you see the opportunity that this represents. And, Jean, I think you have a somewhat similar orientation and thought process on ambiguity. So your recent book leading in nonlinear world addresses specifically the need to accept that the future is very fast approaching, can we start with your thoughts on how we can face this acceleration of change and acceleration of the future?

Frederik Pferdt:

Yes, well, you know, we hear it a lot, right. Like everybody talks about that, the that change is happening, you know, very fast in our times, and, and so forth. What I like people to ask, is that, you know, think back in time to the day, I think it was March 16 Because it was my birthday, my son's birthday 2020. And think back to that day when the pandemic was officially announced, as a global pandemic. Just think how you you reacted in those in that situation when you heard about that right where lockdowns happened in we know what what happened in your during those those days, the first days of the pandemic, and just think back, like how that change affected you and how you emotionally reacted. And then think back to November 2022 when open AI announced chat GPT and made that accessible and available to people. You know, what were your feelings that day? Right? Were you like, you know, excited? Were you throwing your hands in the air? And they're like, Yes, finally, you know, we have a useful tool with AI Are you anxious or afraid even and so I think those two points Mark tremendous changes in the world and we have like many more changes that we see obviously happening, but just thinking back and feeling like okay, what's what's the reaction that I usually have to you know, changes that we we don't see as something positive or negative immediately. But you know, that turns out to be maybe opportunities right. Even in a pandemic. You can see many opportunities if you look for it. or if you know AI is, you know, emerging, like, how do you react? Are you again like looking for opportunities and seeing that as a positive or negative and I think you can choose, right you can choose how you respond in these situations and how you respond to change. But yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts, Jean around, you know, how we deal with ambiguity and that uncertainty that the future holds. I

Jean Gomes:

love the beginning of your book because of the optimism in it, and not another kind of blind optimism but a very constructive pragmatic way of, of looking at things. And I think, you know, my, my, my take on it at the time was sort of, throughout my career, I've heard this mantra from every business book, every, you know, kind of corporate presentation going back to the early 80s, the world is changing faster. And it's the same old rap about, you know, what is changing technology, globalisation so on. So it's kind of like we're inured to this idea. And I think we're at a point where we are, we are going through a really fundamental change, because some of the things that you've been talking about in terms of technology, but are we asking the right question about what that looks like, and on the opportunity, part of it is, is part of it, but the, the inherent assumptions that we're making is that we actually know what's going to happen? And that, that we can extrapolate from what open AI and other technologies will do, but what what if we're wrong? What if those things are going to be completely different? You know, what if our children are actually going to become, you know, part AI, not working with a cobalt, but actually, it's much more integrated, or something else completely different happens. And the thing that I believe it that this stage is what we should be focusing in on from embracing uncertainty is to understand what only human beings can do and amplify that and really understand how to amplify those things. And I think, again, this is what comes across in your book, you've taken strands of human ingenuity, and you've amplified them to a great extent, in terms of this is what we need to do in order to be able to embrace uncertainty. And I think, you know, the Venn diagram between Frederik and Jean's work is pretty, you know, it's coming together in a very nice way.

Frederik Pferdt:

I love that, Jean, what you're saying that we are probably asking the wrong questions. And for me, that really comes through when we think about the future, and we ask ourselves, what will the future bring? Right? That's usually the question that is on everybody's mind, right. And that's why we are going to these, you know, conferences, to these, you know, to the books, to the podcasts, to the videos, to the articles that trying to explain what the future will bring. But I think that's wrong, because it gives you a false sense of security, right? Our minds love that security, right? That they get, when, you know, we we we anticipate or predict predict what's to come, I think we need to move away from asking what will the future bring towards? What future do I want to create? And what future can I actually create? And owning your future a little bit more? Right? Because that's the only thing that we can control. Right. The other stuff is, is out of our control. And I think that's a beautiful shift in question that we should all undertake. Yeah,

Jean Gomes:

I agree with that. Because I think, you know, my, my businesses been in the past very heavily focused on serving leaders and organisations to do the things they want. And I've completely pivoted in recent years to to understand what contribution I want to make to the world. And then, you know, obviously deliver, that hadn't get bring that to people to create value, but I know what I want to do, and not part of the world I want to create around that. And that's what the team outside is doing. And we're on a, you know, a decade long mission to bring about that future. So I totally agree, the only way in which you're going to in the future is actually create, create it envisage it and create the vision you want.

Frederik Pferdt:

I'm super curious about that. Sara, if I may just jump in, like, you know, what's, what is the contribution? Yes, Jean wants to, to, to make in this world because I'm, I'm, you know, plundering with that question too, like, what's, what's the real contribution, you know, I want to give to to people and to the world, but like, you know, is that changing over time as well?

Jean Gomes:

Yeah, it is changing over time. And if it doesn't start with an endpoint of by 2035, or whenever I you know, kind of get to the point where I'm no longer functioning that in game as it were. I think it starts with the purpose of being a driving force of human Evolution because what when I look back over the last 3040 years, I'd say that we have adapted negatively to most of the technology that we've created in the world, we've become either slaves to inboxes, or we have become we've confused Doom scrolling with renewal, you know, neither particularly healthy. And as we got, you know, AI, virtual reality, robotics and so on, are we going to adapt negatively to those things? reactively to them? Are they going to make us more unhappy, more unhealthy? Or are we going to actually transcend and become more of more human and I think that's, that's, that's the purpose really, is to become more human with those technologies. And that's why when, you know, back to my roots in, in neuroscience to kind of figure out a redefinition of mindset, which isn't just about this kind of abstract psychological basis of mindset, but actually the hard science of neuroscience and say, like, how do we make sense of ourselves in this situation, because when you can strengthen that element of who you are, when you know how you're reacting to change and uncertainty, and you know, not only how you're doing it, but you know what to do about it to be constructive about that. That's the contribution I want to make to millions of people, I want to help millions of people understand that how to make better sense of themselves in a changing world.

Sara Deschamps:

And Frederik, if I could jump in? How would you describe your contribution?

Frederik Pferdt:

That's a great question, Sara. Yes. And, again, like, that's a question that that, you know, is on my mind, a lot. And I think, you know, leaving Google was was one of the steps I took to say, like, Okay, what's the contribution now beyond an organisation that I can serve and help you know, 165,000 people to, you know, innovate and create a culture create a creative culture. But what's beyond that, and I think what I want to do is, I want to help people to have a different relationship with their future, again, that they don't see the future as something distant that is in control by some that is controlled by someone else, but that they are in control that they own their future. And, you know, I want to really help people to, to not just start believing that, but empower them to really build also a future and tomorrow that they want to live in. And I like you in your remarks about our relationship with technology, right. And I think there can be a healthy relationship with technology, it has some so much potential, but it's upon us, it's upon us to decide how we want to leverage technology for good, right and for even better. So that's I think what I want to contribute is to really help people to have a different relationship with their future, and move away from complaining that the future is owned by someone else, and help them to understand that it's totally in their control, right, most of the things that they choose to do, will determine their future.

Emma Sinclair:

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Sara Deschamps:

Perhaps shifting gears a bit and speaking of technology, and maybe disconnecting from technology, I know that mindfulness and meditation are important to both of you. And Frederik, I think in your book, you talk about a 10 day silent meditation retreat that you went on that was quite transformational. And I'm assuming there was a very deep disconnect from screens from tech from, from any sort of connection to the outside world. How did that feel?

Frederik Pferdt:

Yes, it's an interesting point. You're making Sara that it feels like you're disconnecting. But I feel it's, it was the opposite. For me, you're really connecting with your deeper self, which is very powerful. And so imagine, you know, you going somewhere where you are not allowed to use a phone, you're not allowed to write anything down, you're not allowed to read anything. You're not allowed to, you know, look in someone else's eyes, you're not allowed to talk, all of those things to really help you to just be with yourself, right? And be with your thoughts, your emotions, your feelings, and whatever comes up. And for me, it was transformational. I like I like to do I like experimenting, right? So one of the things I tried to do is like, you know, go on The Most Extreme experiments that I could find around you know, mindfulness Meditation and that's the 10 days. Retreat, usually, because there's really nothing that is, you know, guided or provided. And you're just with yourself, you sitting on a cushion for 10 plus hours, for 10 days. And it's, it was probably one of the most hardest things I've ever done. Which is also interesting because you're doing nothing, you seem like to do nothing, but you're really sitting with your, your thoughts and your emotions and your feelings. And one of the realisations I had is that notion of impermanence that really comes through that, you know, everything is changing all the time, right? Your shoulder, or your neck is kind of like hurting one day. And then you know, three days later, it's gone. Right? So that has changed, you have like strong emotional feelings one day, and the other on the other day, you're very happy writing, you're smiling for a couple of hours. So these changes just were for me, like on an experiential level, very profound to see that change is really something that is part of, of the human experience, it's part of our life, it's part of, of, of everything. And so that all too close out, I think that also helped me to start my own meditation practice, which I do every day, in the morning, I get up. And before everything else, I sneak up here into the, into our little forest into a little a frame and sit upstairs and and try to just understand and and notice what I'm feeling and how I'm feeling. And that's for me the best start into the day, because then I can start actually controlling a little bit more how I want to respond, and what are my intentions for the day as well. But I'm curious to hear Jean Yeah, what what's your story about, about mindfulness and meditation,

Jean Gomes:

I think during my 20s, and 30s, when I started doing it, I got it all wrong. In that I probably thought of even though I was taught well, I thought of it as a sort of Zen blissed out kind of thing. And I guess most of the time, I'd use it just to try and fall asleep. That was that was the when I had missed the point completely about what it was. So now I look at it like a full stack, from the kind of psychological experience of it to the physical experience of it. And the my practice starts in the morning, where I do a body scan, that's the first thing before I kind of acknowledged to the world that I'm awake. And that is quite a short exercise. But it's really about trying to connect my body with my mind. And get that kind of whole self together and to be able to tune into the state of my body. And to ensure that I'm not confusing my physical feelings with my emotions that I might construct, and that really helps me to actually set my intent for the day. It's not for meditation by any means. And then I think the, the meditation that I will do later in the day, usually when I go home after work or unfinished work is like the bit that resonates for me is it's the hardest thing. It's it's it's the struggle to gain control. There's nothing pleasant about it. Generally, it's a battle of attention. And I sometimes I win that battle, and sometimes I lose it. But the more I do it, the more I feel that every problem that I have starts to diminish. I haven't reached that level yet. It doesn't happen all the time. But it does. But it has really truly helped me to start getting that bigger spectrum, emotional spectrum and where problems become smaller, and in context and observable rather than experienced. And that that is, I don't find easy, but I find it incredibly rewarding.

Sara Deschamps:

I'd love to add my two cents in here I've had, I think because of my background in yoga, I've had a long relationship with meditation. And for me, I really resonate with what you're both saying but it's also about being okay with what comes up. So being okay with the discomfort being okay, if one day it's about crying through my meditation and one day it feels blissful. And recognising that it's this wave of change. And it's, it's this parallel this mirror to life where you're staying present in discomfort, you're staying present in pain and you're also staying present and happy. And recognising that it's the ebb and flow of life. And when I Jean, I really connect with what you've said because when I let Go of how it should always be blissful and always feel good. I was able to sit, perhaps with a bit more comfort within that discomfort. And it opened up a little bit more for me as well. I love what you've both said about that. I'd like to chat a bit about distinguishing between mindset mind state, I know Frederik, you talk about mindset as a fixed attitude that you have that's determined by your history and determined by formative factors that shape how you interpret shape, how you respond to what happens to you. And then you talk about mind state, I believe, as a perspective that you have in any given moment, and that encompasses our current thoughts and encompasses our feelings, our focus, and it determines how we experience the present. And, Jean, that's been a bit of an update on our current definition of mindset in light of neuroscience research, and I feel like that's very aligned with Frederik's definition of mind state. Well,

Jean Gomes:

I'm very envious that come up with a new term. I believed that mindset was such a prevalent word. And it did actually mean so many things to different people that encompass state attitudes, I mental models, ideas, and so on that, what I wanted to do is to try and CO opt and evolve something that people understood rather than to create a new term. And a lot of people did say to me, when I was doing this, you should come up with a new term. So kudos to Fredrik but I think we're saying something very similar. My, I think my starting point was to identify what I thought was missing. I think what I what I thought was missing from the original definition is that it is a static definition, mindset seems kind of like you have a mindset, it's fixed, it's growth or whatever, we have multiple mindsets, they change, they can change in this conversation, you know, they're manipulated to constantly dynamic thing. And then the bit that was really missing out of all the definitions that you see is the effect of your body on your mindset, and the effect of your emotions that you construct. And the science that underpins perception, consciousness, emotions, reframing, just so many different forms of new understanding meant that we could actually build a really actionable model of what a mindset is, and that, that we're continuing to develop that actually, every month, there's new stuff that's coming in, and it's really helping us to deepen that understanding. So, my, my, without trying to make this a science project, my hope was that we could give people something to make better sense of themselves that was grounded in something as real, rather than something that was an opinion. And then, you know, build very practical strategies to help people to have a stronger set of functions that sit beneath that, to make them healthier and more productive. But I think Frederik's saying many of the same things.

Frederik Pferdt:

Exactly, yeah, I fully agree. I think, you know, we are living in a time where mindset is just a term that is, is used everywhere, and all the time, which has its benefits, right? I think the focus on it is, is good, so that we understand that it's an important part of, of who we are and how we interact in the world. But I also felt that it was overused, right, it was also like, you know, you start if you see started, like, comedian starting to use it in his specific way, you know, that it's, it's moving people writing books and making fun of, of mindsets, you starting to realise that it probably crossed a boundary or like an edge, right. And I felt also at the same time, whenever I came across something where, you know, someone talked about a mindset, and was going into how to train that and how to develop that that's where they stopped, right? Where they said, like, okay, you know, you should have that mindset, but I can tell you how to change it, or to develop it or to grow it. And that's always for me unsatisfying, because you know, understanding something is one thing, but then practising it and actually using it, I think, is another thing. And so I really wanted to go beyond something that is, you know, not really changeable over time, that is, you know, a little bit more static, and focus on that dynamic lens of perception, you know, that is shaped by our thoughts and feelings that really guides our interaction with the world. And for me, that is a mind state. And yeah, I hope with that we We move a little bit away from that overused term, but also feel like it's a dynamic thing that we can control and train and and, and use to really perceive and interact with the world in a different way.

Jean Gomes:

Yeah, I love that that sentiment because I share this notion that typically what the call to action for a mindset is to adopt it. You understood it, you know, there's a slide here that shows you the characteristics of somebody with a mindset, the behaviours now do it. And that's like, saying, right, watch this video of a, you know, a breakdancer or a ballerina now do it adopt that? Can't do that.

Sara Deschamps:

Maybe we could pause on on Fredrik this i This thought of mind state, and I think you call it the future ready mind state. And you mentioned in your book six key dimensions. So you mentioned optimism, openness, curiosity, experimentation, empathy, and what you call Dimension X. So can you maybe walk us through some of these at a high level and specifically Dimension X? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Frederik Pferdt:

Yes. And I hope that everybody recognises these dimensions, right? Because those are actually part of us humans, right? We all have this level of empathy. We all are, you know, open to a degree. We all experiment sometimes. And, you know, we are born as a curious individuals, right. But what I tried to do is put a couple of other labels on it to signal that it's not just these qualities or dimensions that we already possess, but I want to, you know, dial those up and trying to really unleash those. So that's why I call optimism not just optimism, but radical optimism. And for me, radical optimism means this is not just your everyday hopefulness, right? Because hopefulness for me is passive, right? It's like, you know, you cross your fingers and your weight. But radical optimism is really about believing in great outcomes and going for it. And using that metaphor of that, seeing that glass half full or half empty, which is usually signalling, like if you're an optimist or a pessimist. For me, it's not just about seeing the glass half full, it's seeing the potential to fill it completely. And that is, for me, radical optimism.

Sara Deschamps:

When you mentioned radical optimism, and that idea of glass half full glass half empty. That, to me brings this idea of we either have it or we don't. Do you feel like optimism can be built.

Frederik Pferdt:

Exactly, specifically radical optimism, right? It's something that you can train yourself in. And you can really then look at every situation with that lens of saying, like, what is what is the opportunity here, that I that I see what's the lessons learned? What is something that I can take away from? Again, we often hear that question Is the glass half full or half empty, and that just measures the level of optimism or pessimism right? Again, a person who sees the glass as half full focuses on the positives and, you know, others see the glass half empty focus on the negatives. But actually, radical optimism goes beyond this binary view. Again, it's not just about seeing the glass half full, it's about recognising the potential to fill the glass further. And so a radical optimist really sees the possibilities and opportunities for growth and improvement, even in challenging situations. And, you know, maybe to give you an example here, when you you know, work on a project, right? And halfway through, you just acknowledge the work you've done, and the milestones you've achieved, right? So that's the way you say, like, Okay, I just acknowledge where, where I am and what I've done so far. But then you can envision the potential. So ask yourself, How can I fill this glass further? Meaning? How can I look at the work and what's to come so visualising the end results and the impact it will have? So you think about your project in a way, what a successful completion would look like. And you identify areas where you can innovate or improve. And then you think creatively about how to use the available resources that you have and opportunities to even fill the glass further. So for me that radical optimism really involves also action, right, how to take concrete steps to fill the glass further. So this really means setting these ambitious goals, you know, you're working towards them with his determination and creativity. And it's something that we can practice, right? People usually say to me, like, hey, Frederik, why are you always so positive? And I said, like, I'm not just positive. I'm a radical optimist, because I'm trying to look at every situation, you know, with that lens. And that's something you can do and you can choose.

Jean Gomes:

I'm really intrigued about the what how, you know, like, what's the radical optimism conversation around the dinner table with the family? What does that look like? For household?

Frederik Pferdt:

Amazing? Yes, that's a great question. You know, that's, that's really the test you always need to do is like, you know, take these things to children, right? And see how they respond. And yeah, I get I get these funny looks from my kids all the time. I have three kids. And, you know, they roll their eyes like off rhetoric, your dad, you again, so optimistic. Why, why are you optimistic about this? I think that's the only that's the only choice I have. Right? Like, because we also know from research, actually, that optimists, they live on an average 15% longer than people who are not optimistic, right, which is, you know, I tell my kids, and they're like, Oh, that's cool. Okay. Now, I know, I understand a little bit more. But it's really that notion that, you know, we shouldn't see the world, you know, through these, you know, Rose coloured glasses, right. It's not just seeing, you know, everything positively, it's acknowledging that there is bad things that are happening, right, it's acknowledging that, you know, you're in a difficult situation and a challenging situation. But at the same time, you can change that situation, right, because it already happened, what you can do is you can choose your response. And you can choose how to look at that situation. And I think that's something where we probably need a lot more off, especially nowadays, because radical optimism is just very rare. These days, I have to say, Besides, there's an album coming out from a very famous singer, I think, that was released two weeks ago called Radical optimism. So I think there's a little bit of hope there.

Sara Deschamps:

Frederik, you you mentioned in your book, the idea of saying yes, and what it does to your brain state in terms of reframing? And, Jean, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well.

Jean Gomes:

I think reframing is a is a way that has been well established in people's minds about how to solve problems differently. And there are lots of techniques and so on. But I think at a more human level, forget, forget problem solving, just being able to look at things differently and see things I think a frame, what it does is it allows you to see the world in a certain way. And sometimes the frames that we hold up to the world are too tightly held or too much about our identity, our sense of value, and then that becomes very, a very vulnerable position for us both in terms of missing things, and actually then feeling threatened. Because of the way we're looking at things. So I think, you know, in terms of a mindset, a big part of this is being able to be flexible in that. And teaching children from very long young age that they have the ability to be radically optimistic, is to see both and, you know, to your point, Frederik, you know, think things are bad, but things can be better. And they're not mutually exclusive. The both end thinking and you can't do both and thinking if you have a very fixed frame around things. So that was

Frederik Pferdt:

you make a great point about reframing right. It's such a powerful tool. It's it's probably one of the most powerful tools and it's, it's also a matter of language that we're using. Right? Not just saying yes, more often. And, uh, no, that's, you know, it's controversial because there's, you know, a school of thought that helps you to, you know, say more often no right to things to protect yourself from like going in many directions. But I'm arguing for the opposite I say like a yes gets you to, you know, see more opportunities, it gets you to explore more, it gets you to, you know, discovery, and so forth. And, you know, a no is usually a very simple way of just, you know, stopping right and moving away or, or not feeling engaged. But as soon as you say yes, right. You say yes to your job. You say yes to you know, your partner, you say yes to a new project or a new idea. You're getting involved, right, you are committed to something that leads to an opportunity and I think that's a powerful way of doing that. But I have an even better reframe that I that I love And that's the notion of replacing but with and, you know, when you when you say yes to something, right usually add a butt, right you adding a constraint or you adding a reason why that would not work or something like that. But if you just in your language use and instead of, but it just changes everything. You know, for example, if you say I would like to get more physically and mentally fit, but I don't have much time. i That's the usual sentence we tell ourselves if you just replace that, but with an end you go, I would like to get more physically and mentally fit. And I don't have much time. See what that does, right? It opens up opportunities where you say like, Okay, now I'm brainstorming like, you know, what can I do in a very short amount of time, instead of like this excuse that you say, but I don't have much time, which basically stops your brain from going into expensive mode and thinking about solutions and ideas. And it's super powerful. When you just try to do that exercise more often, and replace your butts with your hands, to really go into expansive thinking mode to come up with ideas, and not just come up with reasons why something would not work.

Jean Gomes:

I know. When we talked further, we talked some interesting things about our relationship to the future as well, which I'd love you to talk about.

Frederik Pferdt:

So there's, there's an interesting question that I was exploring when writing the book, and that's our relationship with our future self, right? What do we imagine ourselves to not just look like or behave like, but what is really how are we going to be in the future, like, you know, are we going to be people who care people who are happy people who are, you know, satisfied, successful, healthy, you know, whatever you want to use as a descriptor. And I found this piece of research that's really fascinating on your future self, because it really examines how individuals visions of themselves in the future, affect their current behaviours and decisions. So these findings indicate that a clearer and more connected sense of one's future self is actually associated with better decision making areas such as health, finance, or even personal development. And so it's research coming out of Stanford, and what they've done is they basically used in one, study VR glasses and put them on 20 year olds, to show them, their older selves, how they would look like and, you know, behave behave in like, you know, with a with an avatar, and what they could demonstrate is that these individuals actually then put more money towards their retirement. So they already made a different decision around their finances. And, you know, some of them, you know, started to eat more healthy and like, you know, have a healthier lifestyle, others, you know, invested some time more in personal development, and so forth. So what's fascinating is like interventions, like visual visualisation exercises, where you're you to try to imagine your future self, right. And you can do that in a meditation as well, by the way, trying to really visualise how you're going to be in the future, who you're going to be surrounded with and so forth. Or even writing to one's future self, you know, those letters that you can write to your future self really aim to strengthen this connection, and potentially then lead to improve life outcomes. So the goal really here is to understand and enhance the influence of future self perception on present actions. And that means that the more we can close this gap between like today and our future self in like five or 10 years, and really empathise with our future self in the future and build that connection, the more likely our actions today will actually change and we're going to live more healthier, you know, we're going to put more money towards retirement, we're going to probably have different relationships and so forth, which is very powerful, I guess. When you think about all the research so far that has been mostly focused on your past, and how you can work through trauma. This is really focused on your future and how you can better envision your future Self to then change your actions today.

Scott Allender:

Friends, if you're enjoying the evolving leader, I encourage you to order a copy of Jean's new book bleeding in a non linear world, which provides a new understanding of mindset, and how to build it in order to thrive in a more uncertain future. It's available online at all major retailers, and there's a link in the show notes.

Sara Deschamps:

I'd love to take a moment and dive a bit deeper into curiosity. I know for me, I'm a very naturally inquisitive person. And for many of us, we actually get curiosity as we age coached out of us, whether that's at work or outside of work in our personal in our social lives. And I'd love to hear both of your thoughts on why curiosity is so important for us to take back to reclaim and to hold deep within us. Yeah,

Frederik Pferdt:

it's for me, Curiosity is just fascinating. Again, like you said, Sara, like we born as curious individuals, right? We're crawling around on the floor. When we were very little, like, we take everything in our hands and put it in our mouth or look at it or smell it, whatever it is, but also curiosity can get us into trouble, right? We all know the signs where it says, like, do not touch or don't go there, or whatever it is. And those are usually the most intriguing places, as you said, Sara, like, you know, you're very curious person. And we love to go to these places where we don't know something or we don't know an answer or something like that. And so, really, curiosity drives us to explore the unknown and push boundaries. Were really in a world where answers at our are at our fingertips, right, we have our search engines, now we have AI, you know, we have all the answers. Usually, I think it's now important to find better solutions by asking the right questions. And curiosity is all about asking questions. And as you know, Albert Einstein said, I have no special talent. I'm only passionately curious, right? That's what he said. And you know, you know, where his curiosity led him to discover and explore all of those amazing things. And for me, that curiosity really comes through with questions like, I wonder, right? When we ask questions that start with a wonder, you know, for example, I wonder how we can make education better with AI? Right? I work a lot with teachers and in in universities. So that's a question that they wonder, or I wonder, how can I improve my relationship with my partner? Or I wonder how I can maintain a healthier lifestyle? Right, all of those wonder questions are beautiful descriptions of curiosity. But now here comes a trick that you can do to even trigger more curiosity. And I have this exercise in my book, and I just love it to use it all the time. Because you can also use that with children very beautifully. So if you use those questions, and you actually turn them upside down. So let's say your question was, I wonder how we can make education better with AI? You can do it with an upside down question and say, what could you do to make ai ai negatively impacted education? Or the other question, what actions would damage your relationship with your partner? Or what habits would you lead would lead to an unhealthy lifestyle? Right? So you turn these questions upside down? And then you see where your curiosity leads you to? And what are some things that might actually come up, which is a beautiful way of first showing your curiosity but also then allowing your mind to follow that curiosity to an unexpected place.

Jean Gomes:

And I think I experience the challenge of curiosity in a very practical sense, and I just had some coaching calls with with teams who are having a challenge with curiosity, being you know, sort of culturally inappropriate. So most organisations are so focused on short termism and minimising risk and being predictable, unsafe and so on that curiosity is deemed as unhelpful as irritating, irritating as indulgent, frivolous and so on, because it's not actually going to it's also a very social level, regarded by some people as being not having answers or being nosy or you know, there's a whole bunch of negative connotations associated with it. And so, part of what we are doing to children at a very early age is ironing as Sara said that out problem. And Ken Robinson talks a lot about this when he was talking about the education system. But we did it in corporate world, or like from day one, this is how you do things. This is how we solve problems. This is what's expected of you. So being curious beyond actually understanding the system is is really culturally not appropriate in many organisations. And if we're going to build companies that can actually generate more ideas and more growth and so on, that's got to change radically.

Frederik Pferdt:

Absolutely, yeah. I love that notion that curiosity isn't about answers, right. It's about asking the right questions, and how often do we find ourselves in cultures and communities and organisations that allow you to ask more questions, right? We always want to go towards the solutions and the answers. And so that's why it's just, as you said, not, not socially accepted to always ask questions, right? Because even in in German, the word curiosity means no Gaelic, and it has a negative connotation, right? Someone who is no ag Eric, like, is like, you know, as you said, like, it's no, he's nosy or she's nosy. She's like, you know, always wants to look behind the door and like, find out and, and so forth, which is, which is just negatively. Like, in our language showing up in AI, I, yeah, we need to fight that.

Jean Gomes:

Yeah. And just help me understand the pressures in Google, too, because there's obviously a tension there between having answers. There's a lot of very smart people in the organisation who got what are we solving for what you know, and so on. versus people who can actually ask questions where they don't have to know how socially permissive was it around there?

Frederik Pferdt:

Yeah, so there, there is. One event, I think that beautifully showed that curiosity and openness are values that are encouraged. You know, an all hands meeting that happened on still happens every Friday called TGIF, think Google. It's Friday, which was really early on from the founders started, like Sir Sergey, and Larry just gathered everyone, the end of the week. And what they did is they just opened up, you know, the forum for questions. So they just basically were for one hour, getting questions from, you know, every employee, and most importantly, from the new employees called the Nooglers. Right, they were actually allowed to ask questions first. And I think that's, that's beautiful, because they usually had the most curious, you know, attitude, because they didn't know. And they asked, you know, everything, basically, to the founders, and to the leadership as well. And I think that's a great demonstration, a great ritual, even for allowing an organisation to be curious and to be open as well. And, you know, one of the things that I try to train people in is less around brainstorming and coming up with idea, because that's what most people can do, right? It's like, that's the easy thing. It can use a couple of tricks to even go, you know, for a better brainstorm. But question storming, I think was, for me, the thing that people really didn't do that well, and they had to be coached and trained in to ask better questions. And in one of my class at Stanford, we had actually, you know, four and a half weeks of trying to frame reframe, focus, expand on questions. And it was one of the hardest things for students and I had one graduate student come up to me after the class, saying, Frederik, this was one of the hardest classes I ever took. I was an MBA student. And asked him, like, why was that? And he said, like, because we only worked on questions and not the answers. And so even the final presentations were in what we call the quest room. So we had an exhibit that we set up, where the students could actually display their questions with, you know, an item or a product that actually showed showed the questions in a beautiful way. And it was so powerful because, you know, imagine students displaying one student I had he displayed letters of people who committed suicide, to ask the question, how can we solve the mental health crisis in the world better? And so this was kind of like his his question that he you know, wanted to address Um, and by allowing people to really discover questions and frame questions and reframe questions, it's, it's a great way to train your mind to be curious and to not go to, you know, default ideas, solutions mode, but actually stay with that ambiguity in questioning. Finally,

Sara Deschamps:

I would like us to come back to Dimension X. I know, we mentioned it a bit earlier on in our conversation, and I'd love to find out how our listeners could find and then amplify their superpower. Maybe we can close with that. Yes. So

Frederik Pferdt:

you know, I have six dimensions around a future ready mind state. And you mentioned them already. And one of them is a Dimension X, that's really a unique superpower that everybody has. Some of them, some of the people are just not aware probably of it yet. So what I want to do is help people to discover their unique Dimension X, a unique superpower, and then actually use it in their lives and in their work in their relationships, and so forth. So I have an exercise in the book that really helps you to map out your life, your highs and lows, and then trying to identify what were your mind states in all of those pivotal moments that help you to overcome these, you know, sometimes challenging situations, sometimes very positive situations, and so forth. And mapping that out really helps you to then discover and identify what is your unique superpower. And I've done that with 14 people I feature in the book Googlers and former Googlers I call them future readies incredible individuals. So everybody shares their Dimension X and how they found it and what what it actually does for them. So my my Dimension X is a bias towards action that really helped me in most of my life to, you know, move forward, make progress, not ask for permission, but most of the time ask for forgiveness. And bias towards action is something that is a unique superpower that I have, and I like to use, right, instead of talking about a lot of ideas or discussing them, I usually like to try them out and, and and make progress. And so Dimension X is something that I feel people not not only should be aware of, but really should use in their lives to be future ready. And I help people to find it and and use it.

Sara Deschamps:

Jean, what's your Dimension X?

Jean Gomes:

I think optimism, I think the radical optimism is is is probably the thing that most stands out for me in this conversation and reading the book. And I really resonated with that. Because I genuinely believe things can be better and will be better. And I'm in I'm energised by that that makes me create a brain state shift in others as well. I think that I think that that is something that I feel good about. So I would say that's probably a wildland on.

Frederik Pferdt:

Sara, have you found yours?

Sara Deschamps:

So funny. You asked Frederik, when I was reading your book, I kept coming back to this idea of infusing energy and creating connections for people like creating spaces and bridges for people to connect with each other and bringing energy to the spaces. Um, I haven't I haven't made it as succinct as how you would describe your Dimension X. But it's a work in progress. No,

Frederik Pferdt:

it's wonderful, because you just demonstrated today that you are actually you know, not just talented in it, but you have that unique superpower to bring, you know, Jean and myself together with you. You bring energy to this conversation. And so yeah, here you have it, you already used your Dimension X in a in a beautiful way.

Sara Deschamps:

Thank you. So usually when we close our conversations on the evolving leader, we ask our guests what's next for them. But I'm wondering if perhaps we could reframe that question today. So I'd love to ask you both. What will your future mind state bring you?

Jean Gomes:

I hope that my future mindset will be bringing me a big community of people interested in finding out more about what we do and I'm benefiting from it. So I want to be part of something much much bigger. That's what I'm hoping my my future mindset will bring.

Frederik Pferdt:

So my future mind state will bring I guess more opportunities.

Sara Deschamps:

I love that. Thank you both for this conversation. This was wonderful, so insightful and very much fulfilled my my curiosity that I started the conversation with my openness for curiosity, so I really appreciate it.

Jean Gomes:

Thanks, Sara. Thanks, Frederik.

Frederik Pferdt:

Thank you, Sara. Yes, thank you, Jean. And very grateful. Yes. So my initial feeling is now even stronger, that I am very grateful that I've been able to spend time with wonderful people. So thank you.

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Jean Gomes

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Scott Allender

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