All Pride, No Ego with Jim Fielding

In this episode of The Evolving Leader, co-hosts Jean Gomes and Emma Sinclair are in conversation with Jim Fielding. Jim is a seasoned executive having held several senior executive roles including time at DreamWorks, Disney and Claire’s. He is an active angel investor, startup advisor and philanthropist and is the President of Archer Gray Co-Lab Group. In 2023, Jim Fielding’s book ‘All Pride, No Ego: A Queer Executive’s Journey to Living and Leading Authentically.‘ was published, further expanding Jim’s services to his community, helping to build safe, inclusive and respectful work and community spaces.

Referenced during this episode:
All Pride, No Ego: A Queer Executive's Journey to Living and Leading Authentically
https://bit.ly/3VsjLSL

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)
The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)

Social:

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Twitter               @Evolving_Leader
YouTube           @evolvingleader

The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

Transcript

Jean Gomes: 0:03

The defining change in developed societies since the 1960s has been the incredible acceleration of a broader understanding and acceptance of human experience, from the civil rights movements, gender equality, gay rights to a new understanding of neurodiversity, or the reality of the menopause. The pace at which these topics have now moving from the academic or underground mainstream represents either a daunting source of overwhelm, or an exciting opportunity, depending on your mindset. So when this matters, leaders well our job is to inspire and mobilise the economic activity of those who follow us. The more we understand the perspectives and potential of those we lead, the better we can serve their needs to be empowered and fully contribute. The evolving leader is somebody who challenges assumptions about the potential of their people. In this show, Jim fielding talks to us about his experiences as a gay man ascending to the top of corporate America. Welcome to the evolving leader, the show born from the belief that we need deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to confront the world's biggest challenges. I'm Jean Gomes, and I'm joined by my co host, Emma Sinclair, Emma, how're you feeling today?

Emma Sinclair: 1:43

Hi, Jean. I am feeling I'm feeling warm. The sun has come out in the UK so I am feeling warm for a change. I'm also feeling calm and feeling relaxed, had a good day. And feeling very open to this conversation. I've spent several hours listening and being in the presence of our guests today and I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. How are you feeling Jean?

Jean Gomes: 2:07

Yeah, I'm feeling really good actually. It's the end of the day we've we've just started to have summer as you said it's finally announced itself after weeks months of rain and cold in the UK, so it's feeling great. And I am mostly very curious and excited to learn more from my guest because like you Emma, I've spent several hours immersed in his book because today we're joined by Jim Fielding. Jim is a seasoned executive Having held several senior executive roles at DreamWorks and Disney is an active angel investor, startup advisor and philanthropist currently serving on the board of directors for Indiana University Foundation. He's the president of colab at Archer grey, and a brand strategist and advisor and today we're here to talk to him about his new book, all pride, no ego, a queer executives journey to living and leading authentically. Jim, welcome to the evolving leader.

Jim Fielding: 3:03

Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

Emma Sinclair: 3:06

Jim, how are you feeling today?

Jim Fielding: 3:09

It's funny that you mentioned weather because I you know, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, and we are having a beautiful spring rainstorm today one of those gentle rain storms that I know means more things are going to bloom and it's my favourite time of the year here. I love Spring even though we have a tonne of pollen. But it just means tomorrow more stuff is gonna be blooming and I love that. It feels

Emma Sinclair: 3:33

like a long time coming the summer and the spring. Definitely, definitely over here. So I'm pleased you've got some got some sunshine and even gentle rain for you today.

Jim Fielding: 3:41

gentle rain,

Emma Sinclair: 3:42

gentle rain. I like it. And so we're gonna dive into the central issues of your your book, Jim. But before we do, and I know you do this at the very beginning, but it'd be brilliant if you could just give it a little perspective, a little potted history of your career and some of those those key milestones if possible for us.

Jim Fielding: 4:01

Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, you know, I'm a I'm a child of the Midwest. I was born in the middle of the country, Ohio and went to school at Indiana and after Indiana University really spent the first half of my career at retail like pure traditional retail, a department store training programme. Nine years that the gap, which I always say was like getting a master's degree in retail because it was the heydays of the gap that the 80s, the late 80s and through the 90s and then lands in the catalogue. And then really the second half of my career was media and entertainment but always within I was always doing the consumer products and experiences within big media companies. So you know, the bulk of the second half of my career was almost 12 years at Disney, where I rose up from Disney catalogue into licencing and merchandising and consumer products and ultimately spent the last four years as president of Disney stores globally, and then move from there to be the CEO of Claire's stores the girls jewellery and accessories store that everybody knows around the world famous for ear piercing in many places. And then got pulled back into media and entertainment by Jeffrey Katzenberg when he bought Awesomeness TV, which at the time was a multi channel network that started the Creator economy, the YouTube economy, and I did DreamWorks and Awesomeness TV. And then we got purchased then then it's like the tale of mergers and acquisitions, we got purchased by NBC Universal, I was out of a job I went to 20th Century Fox to be president consumer products and experiences and pretty much thought that's where I was going to retire like that was I was going to do that for 10 years and named my successor. And then you know, the fickle Finger of Fate, Disney bought Fox. And so I went through that 18 month merger acquisition, which was painful but necessary and made sure that everybody was kind of taken care of. And then when that merger closed, I for the first time in my life was like, I'm gonna take six months off, I was tired. I was burnout. Again, fate is such a big part of my life, because that was fall of 2019. And I said, I'm going to take six months off, and I'll see you again in April 2020. And we all know what happened, the world shut down. And so I really think both, you know, the, the Disney acquisition of Fox and COVID kind of came together to make me shift gears. And that's where we are today. And that's really where the book came out of that time as well.

Jean Gomes: 6:45

Yeah, when you when you talk about Claire's Claire's accessory, as it's called in the UK, yeah, we spent a best part of a decade going in there every Saturday with my two daughters when they were young, there was a religion that we

Jim Fielding: 6:59

know man, it's like a life moment for so many people around the world.

Jean Gomes: 7:04

You set up all pride, no ego your book with the reality that many business leaders, especially those who identify as LGBTQ plus struggle with feelings of being excluded and marginalised. Can we set up the pitch for the book? Who's aimed at? What does that stand?

Jim Fielding: 7:22

Yeah, you know, I wrote in the dedication of the book that, you know, I dedicated the book to all leaders, but particularly young leaders who feel marginalised in some way, and I really do believe that it really I feel like I wrote it for anybody who has felt other or different or marginalised at some point in their career and felt that they didn't really fit in or that they had to change in order to fit in. And I think the unlock for me, and I know you guys have read and listen to the book was my editors at Wiley basically said, write the book that 56 year old gym, right 56 year old Jim should write the book that 26 year old Jim wished he read when he had like it was on the shelf when I was struggling with these very issues. So in a weird way, I wrote the book to myself. But it really is, I think it's for leaders or managers have people of any point in their career, but particularly people who are probably earlier in their career. And it's, you know, it's organised around 10 lessons that I wish I would have learned earlier. Because I'm trying to help people avoid some of the angst and some of the pitfalls that I experienced in my career. It's not I'm not saying follow the path and you'll have the ideal career. It's it's suggestions. But I'd say it's really for, for anybody that's felt othered although now that I've been out on the book tour, I've had just as many cisgender straight white men come up to me and say they enjoyed the book as, as anybody else. So I think, I think the reality is, there's, there's times in everybody's life, where we felt other than the group. And so I think those feelings are very common to people. And I think that's what resonates when they read the book.

Emma Sinclair: 9:17

I really enjoyed listening to your book, and I can I can definitely see this way that you're writing almost to a former a former self former deal. And I really love that that repeated lessons that you that you shared. And I wonder if we could start at the beginning where you start your book with your with your childhoods, and you use that to reflect perhaps on how that shapes your character, and maybe that sense of you know, being in control in your life and, and the beginning. It definitely sounds like there were some unhappy moments at that at that start of your of your life. Use a wonderful phrase, if I may share that. A complicated unicorn, which I just think is a wonderful phrase. I'd love for you to unpack that for us. But I wonder if you could just talk about that early start and how that really was important for you to shape your your leadership, whether that's for better or for worse. Yeah, I

Jim Fielding: 10:11

mean, well, I think I think the fact that I'm a firstborn male, I think there was a tonne of expectations thrust on me from, you know, my parents and my grandparents, you know, in a good way. I mean, I think there was a lot of excitement when I came, my parents always said, and I always felt that I was like, an old soul. I feel like I've been around a lot. I think I've definitely had some prior prior lives. And so I was always, I was a pretty serious kid early on, you know, and, you know, liked books. I mean, I loved reading. I mean, that's one thing I read about in the book, my parents, I think they stuck a book in the crib. And so reading became a huge part of my life reading and storytelling is a huge part of my family. I started to have feelings and realising that maybe I wasn't the same as all the other little boys around six or seven. And so I think there was a little angst that came with that, because I didn't know what it was called, I didn't know what to do about it. But I knew it wasn't right, especially for where I was growing up. And then, you know, I write, you know, which is probably part of the hardest, but you know, I grew up in an active alcoholic household, my mom was an alcoholic, and my dad was a fireman, which meant he worked 24 hours on and then 48 hours off, and so that every third day thing was like, almost a little bit less than in terror, because those tended to be the days where mom was not on her best behaviour. And so, you know, I, I realised I'm reading the book, and looking back and looking at my journals that I had to grow up fast, because I, I had a younger sister, and I felt it was my responsibility to protect her from it. And I learned how to start anticipating mom's episodes. So I started to learn how to read people, I could read situations quite early. And I was literally the little man at the house, because there was many times where she wasn't functioning. And because of that, I think I never really had that pure innocence and joy of childhood. Like I never really was a kid that just played, you know, I never really kind of understood that concept. Because I always felt this sense of responsibility. Now, ironically, I think that made me a really good manager and executive and leader because I was very empathetic, I was able to handle crisis I was, you know, proactive, I could see things coming. But I think I lost a lot by not ever having that innocence of childhood. And I think that's why I loved being president of Disney Store and doing things for kids. Because in a weird way, I was like, reliving something that I had lost. And we had good times to, as I write about in the book, I mean, I give my parents lots of credit, but the, you know, the complicated unicorn is, they had no idea what to do. They had no, like, I mean, I, I, there was no guidebook for me. And I was so different than my dad, and different than my mom, but I was a true blend of the two of them like I truly am to this day, and, and we didn't have the vocabulary, we didn't have the resources. We didn't have the tools to really talk about what was going on. And so we had it as I wrote em, I know you listen. You know, we had this mantra feelings don't lie. Like we were so proud of that. Right? But frankly, it was utter BS because we were lying about everything like we were lying about, you know, what was my sexuality that was emerging. We were lying about mom's drinking. And to the outside. We looked like a really good nuclear family. Like we were a very popular family. My sister and I were competitive swimmers. My parents were very involved in that programme. We belong to a boating club. And one of the things that's been funny with the book is the people that truly grew up with me in Toledo, Ohio, are like, calling me and emailing me and saying we had no idea and I'm like, exactly because we were doing our job like we were told to keep it at home. Right. And there was no counselling or you know, Al Anon or Alateen it was, we're just dealing with it. And I think because of that I learned how to compartmentalise I learned a lot of coping mechanisms, but it required me in my 30s and 40s to go through a lot of therapy that I should have processed when I was in my teens frankly.

Jean Gomes: 14:55

So you know that you wrote the book to your younger self and as a result That's a really valuable resource for people who are going through similar sort of experiences. But I also flipped that because as a, as a, as a straight, mostly white man, I, what I took from it and what I think other people in my my position can take from it is it allows me to understand something about people about, you know, in going through these, these experiences of life, that is very difficult to understand when you are looking at it purely through the lens of I know, the right language to use and so on the kind of real experience of life that you have. And I'd be really fascinated to understand, you know, kind of like the journey went on as an executive, particularly in corporate America, which, you know, is probably different from other parts of the world as well, but the sense of how things have changed in terms of how you felt about yourself as a gay man in corporate America, where were the inflection points on that journey?

Jim Fielding: 16:01

Yeah, I mean, there was so many, I, you know, I started my career in the closet, you know, my first job out of college, I was living the double life and not sharing my personal situation, changing pronouns. I had a partner but they were always they was like, very gender neutral. They weren't involved in, you know, no, company picnics, no Christmas parties, like very, very closeted because I believed and had been socialised. That by being a gay man, I was going to marginalise myself and limit my career opportunities. And I was very career oriented. I was very success oriented, ambitious, and driven, but early in my life, like 2425, and started to have physical and mental manifestations where I started to get migraines and stomach issues. And, and I would go to the doctor and, you know, naively, they'd be like, you know, your blood pressure's up, and this and that, and like it was having older persons issues. And they'd say, you know, they test me for everything. And they'd say, Well, how's your stress, and I'd sit there and lie through the whole thing be like, Oh, my stress was great, right? Like, I'm fine. But it wasn't because I was like, totally living this double life and thinking the whole thing. And that's, that was really the first inflection point I realised that I was going to have to leave that company and look for an opportunity, like, basically, to come out, like I was going to have to find a company where I was going to be able to be myself, because I was, I was literally physically hurting myself. By not, and that's when I went to the gap. And, you know, I talked about in the book that I I interviewed as an out gay man for the first time in my life. And that doesn't mean I showed up and I have to say this all time doesn't mean it showed up in like rainbow sweaters at the interview, right? And like, carrying my pride flag, but it just meant that I didn't change prone if they asked me about, you know, is there someone in your life or what do you do on the weekends? I would say he him and, and in a weird way, it was a litmus test. I was watching the interviewers to see if there was any flinching, right, or to see if I didn't get another interview. But I had done my homework. And again, this is the ad. So it wasn't like the internet and stuff. But I mean, GAAP was based in San Francisco, they had domestic partner benefits earlier than other people. And so I thought, okay, they probably are a good environment. And it turned out to be and I think my career directory took off when I left my first company and went to the gap. I had an amazing nine years there, because I was bringing all of me I was bringing my full, authentic self. And I never, it was like I had lost 100 pounds, because I wasn't carrying around this monkey on my back that I was hiding. And in San Francisco, I got super involved in the community because San Francisco obviously was a mecca for the gay community. Unfortunately, I moved there at the height of the AIDS crisis. But that also got me involved in the community because there was a community and for the first time in my life, I felt people around me and I actually came out corporately, before I came out to my parents. And so I was still not telling my truth to my parents, even though you know, I moved to San Francisco and, and then my sister kind of forced my hand on that, which was great because she knew, and, you know, we went it was rough. My dad didn't talk to me for a year. But I think when that all came together, when we finally all came together and got through the estrangement, that's when I felt like I was finally you know, I was like, 27 years old, and I was finally living my true self. And so all of that angst from say, seven to 27 started to dissipate and I was able to start dealing with some reality and that's when I started therapy and really, you know, more journaling and more meditation because, you know, I was, I was me, I was finally me and I think every other job since then, when I was recruited for jobs or applied for jobs, it was just I was me. Like you were getting the whole package you either took what I was or you didn't? And and if if I was going to be uncomfortable somewhere, I wouldn't take that job.

Jean Gomes: 20:16

And how do you think corporate America as a whole has kind of changed through that?

Jim Fielding: 20:19

It's it's evolved, it's evolved tremendously. But I always caveat this and you bring it up, especially for your listeners internationally. Sadly, it completely depends on geography, it completely depends, you know, within the United States, even what cities you live in what states you live in, you know, there's it's no lie that our the queer community is under attack, again, around the world, and particularly the United States, there's over 400 pieces of anti LGBTQ legislation active in the United States right now. And so I always caveat this, when I talk that like my experience is living in California, working in San Francisco are very different than somebody who's living in Texas, or living in Florida, or living in Oklahoma. And so, but I do think it's better today. I mean, the emergence of employee resource groups, pride groups, just then the number of companies that celebrate June pride month now and celebrate it with authenticity and true ally ship, it is a different environment, but you need to do your research, you need to do your research on the company, you need to do research on the municipality. And I tell young people that particularly people who are interviewing, you interview that company as much as they're interviewing you, because you need to know that you're going to be comfortable there. And I also am not a, let's knock down the closet doors, and everybody needs to come out and dance around the maypole. I mean, the first thing that has to happen is you have to have physical and psychological safety. And if you are not safe at work, then of course, stay in the closet, because you need a job. You need money, you need benefits, and and you should not put yourself in physical or psychological harm's way. I'd never take that for granted. And I've met a lot of people who unfortunately can't be out at work for whatever their circumstances are. But then I coach them that I hope when you're not at work, you can embody your true self and whatever you do in your personal life. But it's is it better today than it was five years ago? Yes. Is a better day than was 10 years ago. Yes. However, this last year, year and a half in the election cycle we're in it's a tough time again.

Emma Sinclair: 22:36

I was just wondering, as you were talking there, what what the reality of an organisation looks like that really is open to anybody. Because as you're taught that must feel very exhausting to have to mask who you are not you personally, just generally Tomasky you are and I just I just wonder for anyone listening out there, what is what is really good cue of an organisation that is properly open and not practices is said, you know, in your book, like pride, washing and marking all the right moments of time that what does that look like? Really?

Jim Fielding: 23:13

Yeah, that's that's a great question. And Emma, I mean, well, the the first thing I talked about in the book, and then my talks around the country is are they in ally ship and support of the community? 12 months a year, and not just the month of June, right? It's really easy. I talk about pride washing and rainbow washing. It's like all of a sudden, June 1 comes in the rainbows pop up around the office and you're like, okay, is this real or not? Right? But if they're really in it year round, and you can check if they, you know, again, do they have an employee resource group and not not just for LGBTQ? Do they have a black lives matter? You know, Employee Resource Groups? Do they have a women's group? Do they have an API group? Do they have a Latin X group? It's really about marginalised communities having voices. One thing that I tell young people and they're always surprised when I say this is check the benefits, do they have mental health benefits? Right? A lot of times, people will have physical benefits like going to the doctor or going to the dentist or going to the eye doctor, but you won't have mental health benefits and unfortunately, in our communities, mental health benefits are really important. So ask, do you have you know, are you allowed to see counsellors? Do you have subsidised mental health benefits? I think that's a really good indication that they care holistically about people, not just about, you know, I mean, obviously vision and dental and medical is important, but mental. What kind you know, you the great news with the internet, you know, what kind of programmes have they done for marginalised communities through the years? You can research that and also looking at their management and their representation like what does it look like? You know, when you get to the C suite, it's not just are there gay people this but are there women in the C suite? Are there people of colour in the C suite? What's the makeup of their board of directors? actors, right? I mean, if the board of directors is, you know, 965 year old, straight white man, I'm not sure that they're really practising what they're talking about. And I think I think there are ways and there's tools, there's so many tools on the internet Glassdoor is a great one where you can actually just go in and do some social listening and, and find people in the community. To ask them, I also tell people, go on LinkedIn and do a search and see if you know anybody that works at that company and send them know, you know, just ask them questions. Are you happy there? Are you productive there? Do you feel respected there? I, I think that's that's ways that you can kind of say, Okay, this company seems to be putting their support, truly, authentically. And then there's other companies that have come out, probably you guys know more in the United States and append like, we actively don't believe there's people that just said, we do not support the LGBTQ community. I mean, I could name I won't go into it. But I can name five companies off the top my head, and I'm like, well, as an LGBTQ person, I don't know, why will you ever apply for a job there? If they've actively said they don't support it? It's like, you know, there are jobs available, there are other companies to go to like don't bang your head against the wall, if they've said that, which by the way, is there right, freedom of speech, First Amendment, I would not take myself there. But I tell young people that not young people, but anybody who's interviewing, I'm like, do the research on the company. It's your job to do the research.

Sara Deschamps: 26:41

If the conversations we've been having on the evolving leader have helped you in any way, please head over to Apple podcasts and leave us a rating and review. Thank you for listening. Now, let's get back to the conversation. So

Jean Gomes: 26:55

we turn the kind of perspective here for a moment and go. I'm a leader listening into the show right now. And it would be really helpful for me to understand not just about what you experienced, but what will help you from a leadership perspective, to bring your full self to work. And to feel truly valued in the context of this, you know, not just from a benefits point of view, but from a leadership point of view, what are the leaders that have really enabled that? And what what can anybody listening into the show, do differently or learn, start to learn to help bring out the best across the board in the people that they serve?

Jim Fielding: 27:42

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, and I think, I think it's been challenging in the last couple of years, because of all these definitions of workplace now, right? I mean, a lot of my career was spent in a very physical where we were all in the same office, at least for four and a half days a week. And so a lot of the things I talked about are kind of physical techniques, but I've adapted them now for this hybrid and virtual work world. I mean, I think, I think leaders, and it's pretty cliche, but I mean, you have to walk the walk and talk the talk, right? And it, it's, if you want your people to feel included, and safe, and a sense of belonging, you you have to create that environment. And that means gathering physically or virtually, at times where you're not just focused on the business tasks at hand. But you truly get to know the people and you enable people to share their stories. And I think as a leader, straight gay, black, white, female, male, like you sharing your story, your authenticity, sets that tone that like oh, okay, Jean's sharing this emissary this we're allowed to in this environment. And I think that tone starts and I tell companies that I advise now, it starts in the interviewing and recruiting process, right. I mean, it really starts in one of the things that I did as a leader. Even I mean, I, when I was CEO of Claire's, I couldn't do it. Because Because Claire's was so big and so geographic, but at certain levels of the company, I meant I made sure that I spent at least 15 minutes with any candidate before they got their offer because I wanted to feel them and I wanted them to feel me before we actually made the offer right and so that on day one, when they started I already had some kind of a connection with them. And and that was a conscious effort I made at Disney Store. I definitely did it manager and above at disney store around the world, either virtual or in person. I was part of the interview process. It was always at the end. You know, they'd been through everybody else. There might be two finalists and they wanted me to see both of them. I think setting that tone of what we are as a culture because it's really about what your culture is, starts in the interview and recruiting process and then I think it starts In the orientation and training and day one process, and again, as a leader, I was always involved in day one, I was always involved in week one, I didn't want to be this absent, like figurehead that was like in the, quote corner office, I wanted them to see that I was going to roll up my sleeves and work just as hard as they were. And then I was as passionate and committed to the mission and vision as I wanted them to be. And so I think a lot of it is just as a leader, you just have to realise the spotlight is on you, people are watching you, they're watching for cues. They're watching for behaviours, and you set the tone. And then I think a lot of it for me is hiring the right people at that next level, right, who also embody that mission and vision and culture because they actually probably spend more time with the teams in person than I did. So I think, but they're a direct reflection on you as a leader, right. So if I give someone a director title or a VP title, or put them in charge of a function, then that means that they are culture fit as well. And by the way, I still manage diversity, I never wanted 150 clones of myself, we would have killed each other like, and we wouldn't have gotten anything done. Right? It probably would have been fun, but we would have got anything done. You need like I you know, I needed. My like I always talked about my I love my finance people. But I needed like my like bean counter finance people who kept me honest. And we're most comfortable sitting in a cube just running numbers and scenarios all day long. That was their authenticity. And I love that about them. And I needed to create an environment that they were as comfortable as the salespeople were, who were like the biggest extroverts and who wanted to go out and tell the story all the time. I think inclusiveness belonging Dei, it's really about managing, bringing out everybody's authenticity, whatever, whatever authenticity that is. And I'm, I'm super proud of the teams and cultures I built over the years. Can

Emma Sinclair: 32:08

I ask her a question before I just move on to another part of your book, and it's around the word ally ship? And I just love to understand your take on what that really is? What does that look like? Feel like? How do people experience that? And how can you become a great ally?

Jim Fielding: 32:30

This is such a great question. Well, we could do a whole podcast just on ally ship is. And it's funny, I wrote in my book, Emma, Jean, I know you read, like, I never had a gay bar. If you think about that, like I never had a gay boss my entire career. And so really, I had ally bosses, I had straight men and women who were my bosses, but who created an environment where they were like, here's my expectations. Here's my goals. What do you need for me, I'm going to support you. Okay, now go fly, right. And I think one of the most important things as an ally is having the vulnerability to go up to somebody and say, I don't fully understand your lifestyle, I don't fully understand your lived experience. But I want to be there for you. And I want you to teach me I want you to educate me, you know, like by being open and being an active listener, and, and if I make mistakes, I think this is important, especially important lately with the transgender community and the pronouns, like I make mistakes with pronouns all the time. But I would say the people, I'm so sorry, if I made a mistake in the pronoun, please tell me that. So that I learned from that, and I never make that mistake. Again. I think that's pure ally ship is. It's, I don't want to say it's unconditional support, because I think there's still conditions in it. When you work in a corporate environment. I mean, you still have goals, and you still need to be held accountable to your goals and things. But it's it's that ally ship is something that makes people feel I say it a lot if so they're already in this has psychologically safe, you know, like, I feel like I'm it's not a career limiting move, for me to make a mistake. You know, it's not a career limiting move for me to speak my mind and have an opinion. It's not a career limiting move for me to be who I am and talk about my partner or my husband or my significant other. And again, so much of it is in actions. But I think it's also an words by people being vulnerable enough to say, like I said, it's not my lived experience, but I want to understand yours and what I can do to make you more productive and more psychologically safe. It's, unfortunately, again, I think in person virtually, it's it's communication, you know, it's having it's having those discussions together. It's no different than me when, you know, a woman you know, I had people that worked for me when a woman got pregnant and you know, and their life changes when they become a mom or they have twins and things like that. I don't understand that experience. I'm not a parent. But I want to understand that experience, because I realise now that you have different priorities. You're a working mother, you're a working mother of twins. Okay, tell me about that, like, what do we need to do to help you still feel part of the team and feel productive, but that it's like I needed to be an ally for that person? I'm not black, I need to be an ally for the black community. Right. So a lot of it is about just asking open ended questions and getting into those discussions and being prepared to change.

Jean Gomes: 35:42

To support. And in the book, you mean, you bring out because at the core of what you're talking there in terms of being a good allies staying open and curious, to new experiences, that requires, because when you're busy, and you're trying to get things done, and tick things off, and be shut certain, and so on, that actually requires a state of, you know, a state to be in, where you have to calm yourself down to be able to engage in somebody else's experience? What have you learned about how you do that switch from the kind of action mode to the empathy? Yeah,

Jim Fielding: 36:18

well, a lot of that, I think that's part of where the title of the book came from, too, because I also think it takes a tremendous amount of humility. Because you have to admit, a lot of times as leaders, like when you get to the C suite, you get that President title, that SEO title, like, people expect you to have all the answers, right? They expect you well, you know, you have that title, you must, you know, you must be able to make all these decisions. And so I think it takes a tremendous amount to kind of perk your ego and be like, you know, what, I don't know how to handle this situation, or I've never been in this situation before. And I need to ask some open ended questions. And my management style has always been two heads are better than one, you know, I always I say in the book, like, if you came to my office, or you, you know, stopped me in the hallway with a problem, I was always going to ask you, well, what would you do before I just offered a solution? Because I saw that as a teachable moment. But honestly, many times I wanted to know, because I knew they had already thought about a solution, or they wouldn't have ever been bringing me the problem, right? I actually wanted to hear how they were going to solve it. Because again, I don't always have all the answers. So I think, I think it's really about staying grounded and staying humble. And that's where your empathy comes from. And listen, my mom always said to me, that's why they pay you the big bucks. Like you have to make decisions. Sometimes Sometimes you're just in management mode, leadership mode, and you are ticking off the boxes. But it's about finding those moments in the day, or in the week, or in the month, where you are just kind of observing, and you're not doing you know, I talk a lot about I want to be a human being not just a human doing. I think if you're feeling like you're just moving from meeting to meeting to meeting, and you're just shooting, you know, problem solving and everything else, it's incumbent upon you to say, well, I need a break, right? I need I need to put a break in here I need I need to just have even if that man, I'm definitely an open door manager. But there's times I close my door and was like, I'm gonna take half an hour. And sometimes I put my head down on the desk, or sometimes I just looked out the window, or sometimes I, I read a book, because you can, as a leader get caught up in that where you're just like in decision mode. And I think again, it comes down to your humility and controlling your ego. To stop and breathe, basically.

Emma Sinclair: 38:45

Do you have any go to questions that you use to open your mind? Or when you're in a group situation? And you can feel it closing down? Is there anything that you use particularly?

Jim Fielding: 38:57

Yeah, I mean, that's great. I mean, one of them I just talked about is, a lot of times, I would have to say to myself, don't solve it, Jim. Right. Like if somebody would ask me a question. My my initial inclination is usually be like, if somebody would say to me, black or white, let's just play that I my initial inclination would be like black, right? Because I'm just trying to move on and close it. And I would literally say to myself, Jim, ask them turn it on them. Well, what do you prefer? And tell me why right, like make it a discussion. Don't make it like a one way. I always, I always found Monday's particularly interesting in an office situation because you can get into conversations about what did you do over the weekend, right, like, and I truly wanted to know what they did over the weekend if they were willing to share. I mean, you know, did their kids have a sporting event? Did they go to a play? Did they go to a concert? You know, did they play in a park? Did they cook something? I always ask questions about we did a lot of potluck Some stuff, I think food is a great, safe discussion topic like favourite foods and having people bring in their food, like I always loved at Christmas on our teams where he did like Christmas cookie exchanges, right? And everybody would bring in their as Christmas treats and Christmas biscuits and things like that. I think there's so much storytelling in that, like, that's what I would do is I'd be like, Well, why did you bring those cookies? Like, I would literally say, like, Okay, you brought those cookies, and nine times out of 10, it would be like their grandmother's recipe, or their mother's recipe, or this is the cookie we always make in our family. You learned so much about people from that. And if it can be in three minutes, right? It's not, it's not like it has to be this intense therapy session. And I think that's the constantly curious, I am constantly fascinated by people. I think people are so interesting. And they're all evolving. And so I just have this natural curiosity about people. And I think, I love that. And I also am blessed with a good memory. So I remember their spouses names, I remember their kids names, and I, you know, I'd be able to, you know, it's so funny now, because I bet some people I've worked with me for over 25 years, I've watched them like half the child. Now the child's graduating from college. Now the child's getting married. And you know, I just make this joke. Like, that can't be possible, because we're not any older, like, how did that happen? Right. But I think it just makes as a leader, it just makes you real, right? Because we, you know, we put sometimes I think we put on airs as leaders or managers that are really it's not natural. I mean, we're, we're normal to, and I want you to like the cookies that I made for the exchange, which were probably my grandmother's recipe.

Emma Sinclair: 41:47

So you make me want cookies. Now.

Jim Fielding: 41:49

I know, I know. I'm thinking about Christmas. Like, I need to do some kind of cookie exchange.

Emma Sinclair: 41:57

I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you another question. I'm gonna take you back into into the realms of Disney. But when you left Disney and became CEO, Claire's. You mentioned that Bob Iger, their Disney CEO gave you some very good advice. What what was that? Can you share with that

Jim Fielding: 42:13

this? Yeah, I mean, I mean, the fact that I got, you know, and full credit to Bob Iger, the fact that I got an exit interview with the CEO of The Walt Disney Company, when I resigned is shocking. And the fact that it was scheduled for a half an hour, and he extended it because we were having such a great conversation. And the biggest things I took away from that is he told me because I had never been a CEO, right. And he said, This is what you have to do as a CEO is like hire the right people and let them go. Set the mission and vision and make sure that everybody on the team understands it and support your creatives because he knew I was going to Claire's. And you know, Claire's is about product development, everything and support your creatives at all cost, which is basically the same thing he did because the creatives are like the gasoline in your engine, right the petrol in your engine. And he he gave me very specific tips about even managing creatives and how to not make the creative process like hierarchical and lots of check offs like that, really, if you if you hire in his case, a creative meant like a filmmaker, a television maker, you know, a Siri, you know, a writer or an animator, you know, somebody like that. In my case, it was more of like a designer or product developer. But it was the same principle of set your expectations and then let them go. And one of the things that I've said, which is the same thing, he said, I've said it different ways now is, you know, hire people that are smarter than you are and hire people that are that scare you are two things that Bob and I talked about is, again, I think Bob even though he's one of the, you know, most respected leaders in the world, when you do get to spend time with him, he's a very humble man. And he and he does identify talent. And he, the fact and I mean, that was 2012. And I hear him so clearly in my head and 2024 like I hear His voice, that that conversation was huge, huge.

Scott Allender: 44:23

Friends, if you're enjoying the evolving leader, I encourage you to order a copy of Jean's new book leading in a non linear world, which provides a new understanding of mindset, and how to build it in order to thrive in a more uncertain future. It's available online at all major retailers, and there's a link in the show notes. We had Michael

Jean Gomes: 44:44

D. Watkins, who wrote a book called The first 90 days which is by hundreds of people making the transition to CEO and being bought by 2 million people and yeah, transition to CEO is not an easy thing. Ride? Not at all, when what did you learn about taking on players in the rearview mirror?

Jim Fielding: 45:09

I, I learned that I was ready, I was probably 80% ready for that job, I was ready, creatively store operations product, knowing the customer guest experience. What I wasn't ready for was private equity, investor relations, debt finance. And that's because I had been only working and large, publicly traded companies were frankly, managing the debt and the stock price of Disney was not my job right, managing the board of directors. And so where I wasn't prepared, was in managing a board of directors, you know, in managing debt investors and managing Wall Street. And I'm not, I'm not sure. I mean, maybe I could have taken some classes or maybe I could have tried to get more involved with it at Disney, but but to go from a large fortune 50 company to a private equity held company, I was not ready for that finance, that financial side of it. The good news was I had an amazing CFO, who was there when I got there, and I retained, and he taught me a lot quickly when you talk about those first 90 days. But in hindsight, I would have been, I would have liked to have been a little bit more prepared for that. The other thing I learned, quite honestly, was private equity. owned companies have a lot of debt, usually because of how it happened. And that debt becomes a real burden. I mean, you're managing the debt, you're managing the interest payments. And that encumbered you from doing some of the things you want to do with the business because the first thing you have to do is pay your debt. And I don't think I was fully cognizant of that as well. I learned it very quickly. I was prepared for the global pneus of it. You know, what Claire's was in 40 countries that didn't overwhelm me flying around the world and meeting with all the different cultures and languages and all that didn't overwhelming. But I'd say it was it was like the finance P part. And the board management. The other thing is, I think, and I love that book. You mentioned the first 90 days, I got that book. And then another book game that they gave me was, you're the CEO, now what, which is kind of like a gross title, but it's good is the other thing you forget about when you the CEO is you have no peers in the company. I mean, you you literally are the pinnacle. And in my life, I went even when I was a president at Disney, there was other presidents at Disney, right? You could call somebody and say, How did you deal with this? Like, did this ever happen to you, all of a sudden, you're like, you're in right? Like everybody on the team works for you. And I found that I had to network with other Chicago I was in Chicago with Claire Chicago based CEOs because I needed I wanted that like, again, that two heads are better than one. And a big learning for me was the CEOs that I bonded the most with in Chicago were female CEOs. I think being a gay man and the female like I think we had some similar feelings about managing the boardroom and kind of moving in that world. So the Mary Dylan, who was the CEO of Alta was an incredible friend and advisor, Sally posture, who was the CEO of Paper Source was incredible. Mindy Grossman, who was a based in Chicago, but was the CEO of home shopping network. And then weight watchers were people that I went to for advice and counsel.

Emma Sinclair: 48:49

You mentioned in there this concept of the CEO, being nothing equally, like a lonely place. And there's a chapter in your book where you talk about the need to build a family. And it's it's the family that you choose to embrace. And I wonder if you just talk a little bit about what that really means and how how that transpires in your leadership.

Jim Fielding: 49:13

Yeah, this is definitely old. Jim talking to young Jim and old Jim talking to young people is I am blessed. After we got through some issues with a great natural family. I have a great sister, I you know, I my mom is great. My dad has passed, but we were in a great place before he passed and so an extended family. But not everybody in the queer community can say that right? Sometimes because of religion or beliefs or anything. People are ostracised by living their authenticity. And that's where the concept of chosen family came from. And it really is these family of friends and confidants that you've come to rely on in a familiar way who are not your natural birth relatives, but are really the people who have your back and love you unconditionally. I think those of us in March I think most people that particularly marginalised communities are really craving is unconditional love, and unconditional support, we want to be fully accepted for who we are. And when you look at drag culture, when you look at ballroom culture, the concept of family drag families since they that really came out of that culture, and I think permeated our entire queer community. And if you would have told me if you would have told Jim at 18, when he went to Indiana University, that the person he shared a phone with, and the people that lived across the hall, were going to be his best friends when he was 58, I would have been like you're on drugs, because this is like the lottery, like we literally, we got assigned to each other purely by some computer, putting us in the same dormitory. And for me to wake up and I write about this group that I have this group of 12 people from university that are my ride or die. And my truth tellers I talk a lot about truth telling, and most importantly, are the ones who love Jim, JD James for Jim, not because he worked at Disney, not because he was a president or CEO of Claire's, these people love me for me. And by the way, will cry, call out my BS when I become arrogant, or, you know, when I'm not there for them. And I don't think when you're 18, you ever look at those people and think 40 years from now I'm going to bend through marriages and divorces, and deaths and births of children and graduations and everything else. And I just think it's so valuable. And then my work family that I formed, I have this incredible group of people that have been very loyal, and very supportive, that have moved with me from company to company. And that has been such an asset because we have a shorthand with each other. That just makes things go faster. And it's not like a clique or a cult. But it's just the shared experiences where I can look at somebody and say, remember when we did this with trolls at DreamWorks, and people be like, Oh, I know what he's talking about. And then they go off and do it. It just makes it makes life easier, and it makes it more pleasant. And I, everything I am today is because I've worked with some incredible people who let me make mistakes. Let me try some things. And you know, who I grew up with? Basically, if you think about it, I mean, some of the people I worked with at Fox I had worked with for 20 years like and they had they had grown and I had grown together.

Jean Gomes: 52:43

Another kind of significant part of the book is, and this is again, I think talking to the younger Jim, is about how you've come to change your relationship to what success looks like. When's Enough? Enough? Can you talk to us about that?

Jim Fielding: 53:02

That's one of my I love that you read that. I mean, it's one of my favourite chapters, because it's also got a lot of comedy in it, because my sister and I are, you know, there's only two of us. But you know, for for your listeners, I say that I'm four seasons. And she's Hampton Inn. And I don't understand, like, we grew up the same way. But why is she my sister is so much more simple than I am and like, so much more appreciative of civil like, that doesn't mean five star accommodations, and I do. But I, what I had to come to and again came to very late life with the help of therapists executive coaches is that I was doing a lot of things seeking external validation. And I think that was the insecurities of little gauge in me. And so I was very hung up on my house and what car I was driving and where I was vacationing and, like external trappings and external validation to show that I was successful instead of really owning that I felt successful internally. And that I was on this treadmill. I just was running to keep up like keeping up you know, in America isn't keeping up with the Joneses. I was just keeping up and keeping up and keeping up and, but wasn't really feeling satisfied in my soul. And once I was mature enough to say, I'm getting off that treadmill, and I'm going to stop seeking external validation and I'm really going to dive into what makes me happy. My definition of success changed and it became I also think it's a symptom of ageing, because your body starts to change and you start to think about health and you start to think about I just had a knee replacement surgery three weeks ago, right? And so when you have a joint replacement surgery, priorities change, things changed when my mom you know, as I talked about a little bit in the book, but it's been more my reality last two or three years when my mom got my mom has dementia when she was diagnosed with dementia that changed everything in her life. I have, right because it was really about precious moments when you have her with you that you're just maximising those times when she's fully there and fully present. And I wish I had learned from my sister earlier, and I wish I had defined success differently earlier. So that I said, I could appreciate it more. Because I think there's a lot of times in my life, I kind of just went through the moment and didn't fully appreciate it. Thank you.

Emma Sinclair: 55:30

So today, there is a lot of turmoil. You mentioned it around diversity issues, particularly moment us in different areas. And what's your current assessment of these tensions? And more importantly, how do we move forward from them?

Jim Fielding: 55:48

Yeah, well, I think the first thing, again, this kind of goes to the vulnerability and ego is, I mean, the motions I would use to describe myself as an American citizen living in 2024, in this election cycle again, scared, frustrated, concerned, some days, I'm shocked that we're having these conversations in 2024. And it feels like we're back in the 50s and 60s. But then, I say, Well, we've been here before, you know, we fought for we fought through the AIDS crisis, we fought for civil rights, we fought for the right to marry as a queer community. And we're in another fight. And I think this is where I talked about in the book, just by living your life, you become an activist, and representation matters. And I think this is why where I am right now with this book, being out on the road, doing speaking appearances appearing at bookstores, is I have to share my story. Because the only narrative about the queer community can't be coming from, in our case, the far right, who are accusing us of horrible things, and our banning books, and banning drag shows and telling stories that are true. And so I think the way to counteract that is to by be by being visible, and being representative, and by telling your stories, but I won't lie. I have been on this book tour. I have been in the state of Texas where I've had to have bodyguards, at my speaking appearances. That's not a great feeling. That's not a word. They're checking people at the door who are coming into a book signing, that's not a great feeling. It's our reality right now. And I feel like all of us that have, we're like the elders in the community. Now, unfortunately, I'm getting ready to turn 60 Next year, I think it's us that have to try and role model that behaviour for the younger people like to create these safe and inclusive spaces. And as I mentioned earlier, there's certain states, the state of Florida, the state of Texas, the state of Oklahoma, or not kind to our community right now. And I feel for my brothers and sisters that live there. And there's people that are leaving the people who have the means to leave, and you know, can get a job somewhere else. But as I say, and you'll understand this, even though you're overseas, not all the gay people can live in California and Washington and Oregon and New Jersey and New York, like we can't all just be ostracised into these certain Safe States. There's queer people in every state in America, and we need to help them live their authenticity. But there's days it's super frustrating mi won't lie, like and but the rhetoric between the right and the left and I know you have versions of it in London, Armenian UK as well. I've never seen it like this where we can't, it's almost like we need to go back. You know, in the States, we took civics classes, like how do you have civil discourse? How do you respectfully disagree without it degenerating into horrible fights and bullying and in some cases, outright conflict. And I think we just have to get back to kindness and respecting everybody's right to their opinion.

Jean Gomes: 59:21

As we kind of come to the end of our time, something a bit more hopeful, which is the work you do in philanthropy, why it matters to you would be really great to hear and what you're doing and what it's bringing to your life as a as a leader.

Jim Fielding: 59:37

Yeah, again, I give my parents and grandparents credit because I didn't realise I grew up in a philanthropic household, but we my parents and grandparents were very involved in a variety of groups in Toledo, Ohio, and even every year something as simple as what we call Toys for Tots, where my mother would make us go clean out our closets every year and donate toys before Santa's game. It was something that was ingrained in us. And I was a student who graduated from Indiana University with student debt. You know, I had loans, I had grants. And it took me till I was 30 years old, I graduated at 22 to pay off all that debt. And so that was a burden. I thought of it as an investment in myself, but it was a burden. And so one of my driving in one of my driving forces in philanthropy is I create scholarship funds because I'm trying to help ease the burden of the cost of an education and the cost of an education in a four year college is definitely going up. So that's one of my major drivers. One of my other favourite scholarships that we created as a family and it was after my my dad passed, it was really an honouring him. It's called the student advocacy and leadership scholarship at Indiana University. And it's to pay for people to go to seminars and classes and conferences, particularly queer students to learn how to be an advocate to learn how to be a public speaker to learn how to be passionate about a cause and how to work within the community and how to work in nonprofits and be a community organiser. And you know, and then the work I've done with Make a wish and the Red Cross and it's, it's truly it's what pulls at my heartstrings. And I'm blessed that I was in a position financially to be able to dedicate part of my earnings to giving back and you know, I've lived with this motto my whole life, maybe leave our corner of the world a little better than we found it. I think that's where philanthropy comes from is you know, I'm not naming buildings, I'm not building universities. I'm trying to do small things that make a difference in people's lives and make their lives easier.

Emma Sinclair: 1:01:53

I've got one more question. Why is Jiminy Cricket your favourite Disney?

Jim Fielding: 1:01:58

Oh, I love this. A couple of answers. Number one, it's truly the Pinocchio is the first movie I remember seeing in a theatre with my mother. Now again, for your listeners who are savvy. That does not mean I saw it when it originally came out. Like people somebody said, Jim, you're lying. I'm like, no, no, it was a rerelease, right? But I remember going into theatre with my mother and Pinocchio is a pretty dark movie, actually. It's got a lot of themes in it. But if you think about Jimmy, what Jimmy represents in that movie, he's the best friend. He's a moral conscience. He's, he's like on your shoulder. Right? And I think I wrote in the book that I actually didn't like being a firstborn. Am I right? I actually wished I had an older brother or an older sister. I wanted someone to guide me a little bit. I think that's what I thought of as Jiminy. As I got older. I also came to appreciate the design of Jiminy and his art and his little his snappy little dresser and his umbrella and stuff and and you know, at Disney and the first day, they asked you who your favourite character is, and you don't realise that the time that that can then goes on your name badge. And so that lived with me for 12 years. At Disney and I've collected a tonne of like, like, I would go to Disney collector things and I buy all little tchotchke Jiminy things. I just I really do love him, but it's mostly because he represents conscience and he represents morality in that movie. And he tries to protect Pinocchio from doing some bad things.

Emma Sinclair: 1:03:34

Do you have a favourite Disney character Jean?

Jean Gomes: 1:03:36

I would have to think about that. Because yeah, that's that's not an easy one just to come on. There's a

Jim Fielding: 1:03:43

wide it's especially now with Marvel and everything. And Lucas are so many Disney quote characters. It's quite wide universe to choose from. Well, probably,

Jean Gomes: 1:03:54

you know, my five year old self would have said Mowgli. Yeah. Because I love the job. Good

Jim Fielding: 1:04:00

wise. Yeah, that's a good one.

Emma Sinclair: 1:04:03

That's Belle from Beauty and the Beast. Ah,

Jim Fielding: 1:04:07

she's a very popular princess. Yes. She's She was also the smart princess. Right? She read books and she was she took care of her father. And you know, it's funny when you would read on people's name badges again, great icebreaker. You start to get to know somebody like if I saw you, Jean, and you had Mowgli on there. I would start not to make assumptions about you, but you're like, oh, wow, he chose Mowgli. Okay, and it's a great conversation starter in a corporate setting to say Jean why Mowgli? What am I just a dummy, Jim why Jiminy people who choose Cruella Deville for Jafar, right who choose a villain and you're like, Oh, okay. She chose Cruella Deville what's that about? Right? Like it's a great conversation.

Emma Sinclair: 1:04:56

I love the fact in your book, you say that some people have have been in one day. Yeah, here the other day.

Jim Fielding: 1:05:03

They take it so seriously. And they say, Can I have another name badge? I want a villain and a hero. And then you'd kind of be like, oh god, they're wearing the villain today. What's that mean? Right? Jafar, right? If I Mufasa from Lion King, how can Mufasa from Lion King be your favourite? I mean, he's horrible. But some people that was their favourite villain, right? Again, it tells you a lot about him. And I, you know, of course, corporate HR was be like, This is classic Disney. They can't have to name badges. How much are they? $1? Right. And we just did it at Disney Store. It's in the book. They know, now I'm gone. I would be like, just make them another badge. Make them two badges? You know, come on. It was storytelling. That's what we're all about. It was storytelling.

Jean Gomes: 1:05:51

Jim, what's next for you? After you've done this round of? Yes, promoting the book? What's your next kind of chapter? Yeah, well, I'm

Jim Fielding: 1:05:59

super excited. Because I'm going back to school this summer. I'm going to Emory University here in Atlanta, they're graduate school, I'm gonna get two certificates and executive coaching. I really, I really want to do executive coaching kind of one on one mentoring work. I've got to deal to write a second or third books. So I want to get going on those. And I'm doing a lot of corporate speaking engagements, which makes me really, really happy, particularly when we were talking about the DI fight and pride and all those kinds of things. And so really, you know, for me, 2025 and on, I really want to be spending time in this community and platform that the book has created for me.

Jean Gomes: 1:06:43

Well, Jim, it's been an absolute delight. pleasure. My

Jim Fielding: 1:06:46

pleasure to thank you for reading, listening, researching, it makes it so fun. And yeah, I really, really appreciate the opportunity.

Jean Gomes: 1:06:57

And we will for our listeners put full details of what how you can get in touch with Jim, you should read his book. It's a really

Emma Sinclair: 1:07:05

insightful Listen. Listen,

Jim Fielding: 1:07:07

listen, listen. Yes, I spent six and a half hours with me, Emma did. And if you contact me through any of the social media that Jean and me could give you it is me. It's not an AI bot. Getting back to you. It really is me and I respond to all the messages and it's an amazing,

Jean Gomes: 1:07:24

brilliant, Jim, thank you. Thank you to our listeners. Remember, the world is evolving. Are you