The Longing To Belong with Jerry Colonna

In this episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, co-hosts Scott Allender and Jean Gomes talk to Jerry Colonna. Jerry is a coach, writer, and speaker who focuses on leadership, business, and the practice of radical self-inquiry. He is the co-founder and CEO of Reboot.io, a company born from the rallying cry that “work does not have to destroy us. Work can be the way in which we achieve our fullest self.” Jerry helps people lead with humanity and equanimity through a unique blend of Buddhism, Jungian therapy, and entrepreneurial know-how – which has made him a sought-after coach and leader, working with some of the world’s largest organizations.

Jerry is the author of two books: REBOOT: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up and his new book, REUNION: Leadership and the Longing to Belong.

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)

The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)

 

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The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

Transcript

Jean Gomes: 0:03

The Economist and philosopher John Grey reminds us that progress has an illusionary quality whilst knowledge, technology and science can build over decades, the same is not true for human progress. Wisdom and self knowledge are in fact craft skills. Every individual must learn these for themselves over the course of their lives. On the evolving leader, we'd like to explore new thinking. But we also give time for you to contemplate your own self knowledge, as we do in this meditative conversation with Jerry Colonna. Jerry was a former highly successful venture capitalist, who now draws on Buddhism and works with an impressive list of CEOs, helping them to achieve radical self inquiry. As one client says, He possesses an otherworldly talent for coaxing, authenticity and truth out of people, even coaxing truth out of people who, like myself, have been lying to themselves for years. So find a quiet moment to absorb Jerry's wisdom.

Scott Allender: 1:31

Hi, Friends, welcome back to the evolving leader podcast, we are glad that you're here if you're new to our podcast. This is a show born from the belief that we need deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to confront the world's biggest challenges and that this profound need in our world requires that we each commit to the work that it takes to continually evolve as people and as leaders. Thank you for joining us. My name is Scott Allender, co host of the show along with my friend and colleague, leadership expert, Mr. Jean Gomes. Jean, how are you feeling today?

Jean Gomes: 2:05

I am feeling really good. Actually, I have had a week of brilliant sleep, I have been hacking at it with a various number of little techniques. And I think I've finally cracked a few things. And I'm waking up every morning feeling like I could do amazing things. So I'm feeling great, really good.

Scott Allender: 2:24

Well, now everybody listening is wondering what these hacks are. So you've got to share, at least well, I was listening.

Jean Gomes: 2:30

Well, I mean, you know, there's lots of sleep hygiene things you can do. But one thing that I noticed, particularly when I'm really stressed is I do wake up in the middle of the night with racing heart and brain wanting to write lots of things down. And I've known for a long time that that is a blood sugar thing, you know, and it's compounded through different things. But essentially, your brain is trying to tell you to remember stuff. And so the way, the way that I've found is this idea of taking a number of things, marine collagen, and ketone oil, just a teaspoon of each of those before I go to sleep. And I tried that as a little hack, and it really has worked, I have not woken up, and I've woken up feeling a million dollars. So I recommend it as an experiment rather than as a lifestyle choice, because it might not work for everybody. And there may be a placebo effect in there. But I don't think so because I've I've tried lots of placebo effects to get myself to sleep. And this one's working. And I it is a game changer is in terms of my energy and enthusiasm have to say, Scott, how you feeling?

Scott Allender: 3:37

Physically, I'm feeling hungry, because I just resumed doing intermittent fasting. So I've wished I've could have eaten, but I know it's gonna have the benefits that it had in the past when I once did it. And so I'm back at it. I'm feeling a mix of things emotionally. It's been a bit of a stressful week but that has challenged me to make sure that I do all the sort of practices that we talk about all the time, breath work and sort of introspective work to kind of pay attention to what my body's feeling and all of the things and so it's been really helpful. I feel like I'm in a good place today. Been looking forward to this conversation for a while now. Because today we're joined by Jerry Colonna. Jerry is a coach, a writer and a speaker who focuses on leadership, business, and the practice of radical self inquiry. He's the co founder and CEO of reboot, a company born from the rallying cry, that work does not have to destroy us. In fact, it can be the way in which we achieve our fullest selves. Jerry helps people lead with humanity and equanimity through a unique blend of Buddhism and Jungian therapy, and entrepreneurial know how, which has made him a sought after coach and leader working with some of the largest firms in the country. He helped startup CEOs make peace with their demons and the psychological habits and behaviour patterns that have helped them to succeed and moulded them into highly accomplished individuals yet can sometimes have detrimental effects on their relationships and ultimately on their well being. He's the author of two books, reboot leadership and the art of growing up, and his most recent book, reunion leadership and the longing to belong. And this is going to be a great conversation. Jerry, welcome to The Evolving Leader.

Jerry Colonna: 5:26

Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Jean, for having me. And I want to check into because I was feeling left out listening to the two of you check in. I will say that I was feeling great. Until Jean checked in incredibly envious because I had a crappy night's sleep last night. Then I was really curious. This weird thing, I'm gonna have to ask Jean about like, a teaspoon of what? And then I heard your introduction, Scott. And as like, ah, kindred souls. So I felt like I belonged.

Jean Gomes: 6:07

I'm glad you self checked in because that was the first thing I was going to do with you. So you've, you've saved me the work on that. And I'm glad that that something resonated with your experience. And I should say that, you know, like, I'm not feeling too smug about this. There were four days into this question. It's not like it's it's done work. But the Jerry, welcome to the show. Really glad you can join us. Before we dive into your books can we start with your company, if you couldn't tell us about the work you're doing at reboot?

Jerry Colonna: 6:39

Sure. And I think that it will feel resonant with you all, and the work that you're trying to do. A kind of simple way to understand that what we do is is goes back to something that I asserted in my first book reboot, which is that better humans make better leaders. And the way I would phrase, Scott, what you said, is that, as simple and obvious as that statement is, it's kind of astounding that we have such terrible leadership. And when I think about why we have terrible leadership, it has to do in my view, because the things that we at reboot, suggest people do, and I suspect that you all suggest people do, was really hard. Both taking care of one's own physical body, but also doing the hard work of what I would say is growing up, and confronting, to use a phrase from Bruce Springsteen, the unsorted baggage of our childhood, and to really understand how that shows up, positively and negatively, and not only how we lead but how we are as adults. So what we try to do is enable that sorting process, so that people can fully actualize and, and really lead with that kind of equanimity that I think we're all yearning for.

Scott Allender: 8:21

And you use a, as I said, in your bio, I, Buddhism and Jungian therapy approach to doing a lot of this work. Yes. So can you tell us what that looks like?

Jerry Colonna: 8:32

Sure, and the way I frame it is, by any means necessary. I mean, I might reach into a bag of tricks about psychology, or Buddhism, or pull from my decades of experience as a venture investor. But the goal, in a sense, is always to alleviate suffering. The goal is to always help people land more firmly into their own seat of leadership and adulthood, partially to alleviate their own challenges, but also so that they don't hurt the people around them. Or if they do, they can find our way back to a path of redemption. To me, this is especially critical in business environments. Because, as you no doubt know, there's this odd dichotomy that we carry, which is that somehow the heart and the mind must be left at the door as we become automatons, and we sort of go through the transactional basis of actually doing our work. And of course, you both know, well, that doesn't happen. We just, we just press it down. So anyway, long winded response to your question.

Jean Gomes: 10:02

I'm intrigued by the opening statement that Scott made in your bio, which is that you're helping many startup founders confront their demons, what are the demons that you are encountering? And how you helping them specifically?

Jerry Colonna: 10:21

Oh, my, well, let me tell you a quick story from Buddhism. Okay. So and I write about this in my first book. So there's a famous Buddhist saint and a Milarepa. And he's most famous for first having been abandoned, abandoned, and murdering people. And then finding Dharma and going into a cave and meditating for 20 years. And in the story, he leaves the cave one day to go out and gather firewood. And when he comes back, the cave is filled with demons. And he tries to just shoo them out of the cave, come on, get out, get out, get out, get out. And nothing happens, they stay right in place. So then he gets really wise. And he says, Ah, I will teach them the Dharma. And he starts lecturing. And they all sit like and I like to visualise them as little kids at kindergarten, listening. But actually, nothing really changes. So then he says to them, Well, what are you here to teach me. And one by one, they start to disappear. Except for one. And the one that remains is a big, hairy, ferocious monster. And to that one, he says, Eat me if you wish. And then the demon disappears. I love this story. Because when we're asked whether we're a startup founder, whether we're CEO, whether we're a leader, when we're asked as adults, more often than not, it's the big, hairy, difficult demon, the one that might, for example, be telling you relentlessly, that unless you're productive, unless your output exceeds any expectations, you're unworthy. And in my book unworthy of love, safety and belonging. And, you know, you ask, what are the demons? The demons are on unworthiness. Shame. The sense that I'm never enough. I mean, I think of clients who build successful enterprises, and do something magical, like launch a business. That's freaking magical to launch a business. And yet, no matter how well they work, they wake up at two o'clock in the morning, with thoughts racing, trying to figure out what they did wrong. What they have to do, right? For what? To earn mom and dad's love. And approbation to finally put to rest the demon that says, you suck. And nothing you do is ever good enough.

Jean Gomes: 13:49

What do you find is the kind of impetus for confronting that, because I'm sure a lot of you know, high functioning people who have got these issues at the core of themselves, and that's what drives them on. That's kind of unknown to them in some respects, because to face that is very painful. What is it that gets them to start? To be able to, to inspect that stuff and to look at it in your, in your experience?

Jerry Colonna: 14:24

I think the thing that causes that reckoning, if you will, more often than not as a broken heart. If we just pause for a moment and think about, you know, just think back. I've been a coach now for 22 years. And I think about all the folks who call me almost invariably, the first conversation ends in tears because they're reaching out because the structures and the systems that they have used used to try to mitigate and try to mitigate the feelings and to try to create systems where they feel like they are worthy break down. And to be clear, I relate to this. I was a very successful venture capitalist until my late 30s. And a lot of folks say, Well, how did you go from being a successful VC with all the projection that they place on that definition into this weird zen like whispery voiced coach, talking about Milarepa. And I always say, through a broken heart. See, the thing that we are so conditioned not to deal with first and foremost, is around suffering. Because we're conditioned, right, think about it as children, we start to cry and our parents say, You crying? I'll give you something to cry about. Or they might say, Why are you crying? Can't you see? And they'll point to somebody else who's suffering, thereby diminishing your suffering. instilling a subroutine instilling a belief system that says, Your pain isn't worth your attention. Or to put it another way, your pain isn't worth your compassion, holy moly. Then that child grows up, has power, is tasked with leading a bunch of people and we say why are they so toxic? We start with a broken heart. Because implicit in the broken heart, is the possibility of transformation. And to raise consciousness, I forget which one of you one of you mentioned about the notion of making conscious that which is unconscious, the infamous union statement about until you make the unconscious conscious it will direct your life? And you will call it fate? Well, how do you make the unconscious conscious? The clue is in the broken heart. Why is it so painful to me? And to use a question that animates everything I do? How have I been complicit in creating these conditions? I say I don't want that is radical self inquiry. And what makes it radical is the simple act that we are not socialised to ask those questions. And so we suffer.

Scott Allender: 18:07

Let's let's, let's so much what you're saying is resonating deeply. I'd like to pick up on a couple things. It seems I would imagine that you work with people who are more aware of their suffering or their broken heart, right. There's aware that there's a disconnect there. There's a need there. There's something there's a there's a at least an acknowledgement that there's unconsciousness happening and things that are that are causing challenges. And then I imagine you're dealing with people who are quite successful. And listening to this might feel like that's not me. I don't have any of that sort of broken heartedness. I don't have any of that suffering. I'm not really sure what you're talking about. What's the cost? Like what's what's the opportunity for everybody to do this work? And what's the cost of not doing this work? That's sort of part A, and Part B, I want to come back to what you said a moment ago, because it's so powerful. Where you asked, you know, what's the what are the ways that I have been complicit in creating the conditions that I say that I don't want?

Jerry Colonna: 19:19

So you're right, Scott, that the typical encounter that I get is people will say, well, that's not me. And so I can't lead initially with that. What happens is, and we were joking a little bit before about this. To me, and I will kind of drive them crazy. Because I'll say, Well, tell me about your father. You know, I joke. But there's truth in that. Because what I tried to do is throw them a curveball, right? More often than not, people are not reaching out, because they say, my heart is broken. What they say is I'm struggling, they say, I'm not sleeping, or they say, you know, I find myself fighting with my spouse at seven o'clock in the morning on Sunday, because I can't tear myself away from email. Right, or, you know, at one level, they recognise that they have over identified with the enterprise that they're trying to lead. And so they recognise that they cannot separate their sense of self from the entity. And so the the mind is constantly pushing. So the first thing you have to do is you have to meet the client where they are. And where the client is, is, I need to know how to hire this person or fire this person to scale my business, or I've got this problematic employee. And that, even though that's not really the root, you still have to treat the symptoms, you still have to respond to those. Did that answer your question, Scott?

Scott Allender: 23:06

Yeah. Which I imagine is, you know, really difficult to do that, because so much of what you're talking about is actually seen as evidence of success and worthiness and things right, this sort of, I'm running on four hours sleep again today, right? It's this sort of declaration of how busy I am, how important I am, how impactful I am. And people see that as a measuring stick for success.

Jerry Colonna: 23:35

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, the the the belief systems, I often speak about them as being rooted in childhood, but they get reinforced throughout our life. Think think of think of, you know, the debate about a car manufacturer or satellite operator, social media company, executive who uses the term hard core. And all it does is it sets off this weird little flurry of, are we supposed to set up a cot at the office and sleep 20 You know, and be in the factory floor? 24 hours a day, seven days a week? Heck, no. Of course, we're not supposed to do that we know better. But how am I going to make my million dollars? Oh, what does having a million dollars do for you? Oh, it quiets the sense of whether or not I'm successful. Hmm. Fascinating, isn't it?

Jean Gomes: 24:44

So as you approach this kind of deeper sense of yourself and the suffering that you are, that's holding you back and so on. You get glimpses of this and then you're back into the out into the real world. And I'm sure people kind of have the relapse or whatever version you want to call of kind of going back to show that in a standard sense of awareness. How do you help people to, I suppose continuously monitor what's going on? What's the kind of the way in which you help people to operationalize this in the minute by minute of the day? Well,

Jerry Colonna: 25:29

the simple thing that occurs to me is a teaching that my Buddhist teacher Sharon Salzberg says all the time. And she began saying this in reference to that moment in meditation, where all of a sudden, you realise you're gathering wool. You've lost your seat, if you will. And you're now having a racing thought. And she says, simply, begin again. There's something really powerful in the duel over something really, really powerful. I mean, it happened to me this week, I spent the weekend with my mentor and teacher Parker Palmer, brilliant Quaker writer, an incredible human being someone I've known for almost 20 years, who he turned 85 Last week, and I went to see him just to sit in his sunroom with him. And I came away. It's sitting right there in front of me, I came away with a phrase that is helping me as I am going through some transitions in my own life. And the phrase was, what matters is what matters. Meaning, the thing that I should bring my attention to are the things that actually matter over a long time. I got back on Saturday, Sunday was gorgeous. Monday was good. I kept pulling back into his writing in my journal, what matters is what matters Tuesday. What matters is what matters Jerry, Wednesday completely. was completely wrapped up in all the nonsense mistaking noise for signal. And so I check in with you and I remember, Oh, right. What matters is what matters.

Jean Gomes: 27:34

What kind of things knock you off course.

Jerry Colonna: 27:37

Oh, my God, let me count the ways. You know, somebody else's book doing better on the bestseller list than mine? Oh, my God, my ego, give me a break. Or, you know, some, it almost always lands in some sort of perceived existential threat. Right? Somebody's gonna not like me, someone's not gonna love me. I mean, we started talking a little bit about my new book, my new book, where union seeks to, to lean into the question of what is a leaders responsibility in a world where babies are being killed? Because we cannot stand one another. Okay. It's a tough book. It's a hard book. I mean, my first book causes people to cry. My second book probably causes people to get angry. There's a piece of me that's like, Oh, my God, what if they don't love me anymore? And the lovable reboot writer who gets people to sort of think about their parents versus the tough reunion writer who gets people to ask really important questions like, how am I complicit in creating the conditions in the world? I say, I don't want to see how do I benefit from those conditions? Oh, God. So the fear that I can carry is I like being Beloved. What if I'm no longer Beloved? But you know, what matters? What matters? What doesn't matter is whether or not I'm Beloved. What matters is have I contributed in a meaningful way? Have I been complicit in creating the world that my descendants deserve? That's what matters. And be kind to me. myself when those fears arise, because that's me, taking care of me. And so blow them a kiss. And remind myself, what matters is what matters.

Scott Allender: 30:19

I love this thing you said about the power of beginning again. I know it's easy to sort of either give up and say, I've tried that thing, and I failed at it right? And so I'm gonna throw it off, and it didn't work for me. Or it's easy to sort of get into a shame spiral of I'll never, I'll never become the thing that I'm aspiring to become. But there's an awareness challenge in this as I hear you talk about it, which is what what are the ways that I can become more aware when I've lost focus on what really matters, for example, or that I'm not? Or that I become complicit again, in creating conditions that I don't want to create? Because I imagine, you know, as we're doing these things, we're not really easily aware that we're doing them right. For me, it's like, I think I'm focused on what matters. Every day, I would never intentionally focus on what I thought didn't matter. Right. But what matters to somebody else versus what matters to me what's really, truly purposeful, which is, versus what's pressure. How do you help people sort of become aware when they're not aware?

Jerry Colonna: 31:35

I think, yeah, I think there are three things that come to mind. The first and I want to compliment the two of you for how you checked in. Because if you're experiencing me as being fully present and landed, I hope you are because that's what I'm feeling that stems from the fact that you bothered to do a good check in at the start. You created the conditions that enabled me to land. So God bless you for doing that. And more often than not, we go on autopilot, as you will know. And then we find ourselves in a really tense spot where we haven't had any water, where we haven't had any we haven't used the bathroom. It's 11 o'clock in the morning, and we're running on empty. And we're snapping at the people around ourselves, because we haven't actually bothered to do that check in. So yay, for that. Second thing is I hope you saw me do when I'm going to suggest here, for God's sake, have a little humour. You know, when you catch yourself, having done the thing that you said you didn't want to do? Greet it with loving kindness. Do not you know my infamous question, How have I been complicit is not permission to launch a heat seeking missile of guilt. What an idiot I am, here I go, stop. You're just reinforcing the behaviours that set that belief system in motion in the first place. So that's thing to a little humour. A little kindness. thing three. What is the role of community the great poet John O'Donoghue, has a brilliant blessing called blessing for a leader. And he has his wonderful line in there. Which is may you be surrounded by good friends who mirror your blind spots. Right? I imagine you're in our loving relationship, or in a work related relationship where your partner says to you with loving kindness. Hey, Scott, you know that thing you said you wanted to do? You're not doing that. Or you know that behaviour you said you didn't want to do? How are you feeling? Because you're coming across this way? Is there anything you need to recharge yourself? I imagine we live in a world where our political leaders are business leaders of society those who hold power either by dint of the meat sack that is them or by economic means or by projection. We're surrounded by people who said hey, ya might be operating from your shadow. Again, not to induce blame. And then shame. But to instil curiosity,

Jean Gomes: 35:05

I'm really interested in your recent work around creating community and what you've learned about how leaders can do this, how they can create more inclusive environments, particularly given the polarisation and challenges that we have at the moment. Where do you start with that?

Jerry Colonna: 35:27

Well, I think that the, the way to start with, is to recognise. First of all that we are at, I would argue, I'm 60. And, you know, I mean, for God's sake, I'm in my seventh decade, let that land we're at a moment where polarisation and to use a term that the scholar John A Powell, first coined, where systemic othering is rampant. It is not unique. We have taught we have created tribes and we have attacked those who are not like us, for as long as human beings have gathered in community. But the weaponization of the fear of the other has gotten to the point where it is normal, that we have mass shootings in the United States. Where it is normal, that we look at our immigration policy, not through the lens of empathy and compassion. But through the lens of fear. were genuinely well intentioned efforts to create a more inclusive work environment are met with ridicule, and attacks, because they're perceived to be in some perverse perversion of logic to be a threat to those who hold power. So the first step is to recognise how complex and how difficult the time is right now. And equally important, what the wages of what I call in my book, The wages of separation are. There's a chapter in the book chapter five called the wages of separation that I wrote about three months after the shooting in ivaldi, Texas. And part of what I've been grappling with is, what is a business leaders responsibility. In a world where fourth graders are gunned down. I'm sorry to bring us down. But this is our obligation. This is our moral responsibility. Again, to use the phrase that I use before, in order to create the world, my descendants your descendants deserve. We can no longer just shake our head and say, Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible. But business is business. And we have profits to generate. Just like it diminishes us as human beings. When we as leaders turn towards that mechanism. Yeah, I'll sleep when the company hits its profit objectives. Or I'll be kind, once the company's balance sheet improves, just like that, that is really challenging. We can extend the lens, we can walk and chew gum at the same time, we can discharge our moral responsibility to create fiscally sound containers, while also acknowledging the world as it is. So that's the beginning. That's the foundation of building a house that we really want to see. A corollary an important second step is to recognise the universality of the longing to belong. You know, one of the great good experiences after my first book reboot came out in one which I talked about many of the themes that we've already talked about today. I was overwhelmed by responses from people from such a wide variety of places, excuse me, who responded to the memoir, like stories that I told about my own life, and the emotional challenges that go with it, who responded with in one form or another, the saying your story is my story. Your struggle to feel good enough, just as you are, is just like my struggle. The gift of understanding that is to recognise the universality of this longing to belong. See, if we look at those who are different from us. And we start with the proposition that just like us, they want to love and be loved. They want to feel safe. They want their children to grow up in a world where the Siberian forest are not on fire, or the Amazon isn't being burned. Or Texas, is in a flame in the middle of February. Just like us, they want that. And that they want more than anything else. As Frederick Buechner, the theologian said, beyond even to be known, and to known is the longing to belong. If we can recognise that our colleagues, our employees, our customers, our competitors, all those whom we are tasked and privileged to lead on exactly the same things that we want, then we can build companies that are containers of empathy. And be profitable. With a profit serves the empathy and not the other way around.

Scott Allender: 42:17

Friends, if you're enjoying the evolving leader, I encourage you to order a copy of Jean's new book leading in a non linear world, which provides a new understanding of mindset, and how to build it in order to thrive in a more uncertain future. It's available online at all major retailers, and there's a link in the show notes. Can you Can you unpack your thinking on the difference between inclusion and belonging? And a lot of organisations obviously are focused on trying to be intentionally more inclusive, they understand the value of that. But I hear you saying something much, much deeper than that.

Jerry Colonna: 42:59

Well, part of part of the challenge, Scott is that there's a limitation on language. Right? So words start to be repeated so much that they lose meaning. I have a good friend Justin Scott Campbell, who is identifies as black and is an expert in what we would call dei work. And after reading reboot, he said to me, he wrote to me, and he said, Jerry, the wish for love, safety and belonging. That is the felt sense of inclusivity. The felt sense. Now, what's wonderful about justice teaching for me, is you could argue that the difference between inclusivity and belonging has to do with the heart has to do with the felt sense. And that's because the word inclusivity can sometimes be a stand in for performative number counting. How many people have what identities are in what positions? That's important data? But that does not create a sense of belonging. Yeah, right. And so part of the challenge, there may have been one time in which the word inclusivity meant that felt sense. But unfortunately, right now, we live in this world where even the phrase dei or diversity, equity and inclusivity has become weaponized. And what we've lost sight of is what was the wish in the first Place the wish in the first place was to create a kind of environment where the best people could perform

Jean Gomes: 45:14

was we come to the end of our time, I'm minded to kind of touch on the one of the things he talked about earlier around about being, you know, kind to our, to the future generations to be good ancestors. And I'm interested in, you know, what's your frame around your legacy? What do you hope to leave as a result of the work that you're doing?

Jerry Colonna: 45:45

Well, I write about this in Reunion, because one of the paths to reunion is to reunite with our ancestors, the truth of who they are. So it's very, very cognitive, of ancestors and descendants. Here's the thing. I'm a white straight men straight cisgender. Man, I've got power and privilege. I don't even know how much is projected onto me. I could be wrong. I wrote a book where my assertions could be incorrect. And my suggestions could be way off base, because of the privilege of the position that I have. But Jean, what I will not, I think be accused of is not trying. My moral responsibility to my descendants is to give a damn, and to try. Even at the horrific risk of failing. Because I think too many of us who hold power are so frightened, being wrong, or being cancelled, or being a failing that we don't try. So you know, my teacher and friend Parker, who wrote the foreword to the book, one of the things he says he admires about what I did in the book was I went back and re examined my first assertions, and found them in US insufficient. And instead of defending them with curiosity, I expanded upon. Let's hope to my dying day. That's the attitude I take. That's my wish.

Scott Allender: 47:56

Well, that's a beautiful place to land this conversation, I think. Jerry, thank you so much for spending some of your valuable time with us today. I've enjoyed every minute of it. And I encourage everyone listening right now to pause what you're doing and order. Jerry's books, reboot and reunion, if you don't already have them. How else can people get in contact with you and your org Jerry?

Jerry Colonna: 48:26

Website is reboot.io Just because we were kind of fun. And actually no reboot.com was taken. So reboot.io. And I just want to say and you can find it all things, reboot newsletters, we have free courses, we have our own podcast and all that stuff. But I want to close by thanking the two of you for this experience. It's been an extraordinary experience for me as well. It's it's it's lovely to find kinfolk, isn't it? Yeah.

Jean Gomes: 49:04

Yeah. Well, I wanted to thank you, Jerry, because I feel like I'm in the meditative state. Leaving the show I you know, I've struggled to formulate questions in my mind because I've just been in the, in the flow of, of your thoughts, and that's been really interesting, and uplifting. And I think a lot of listeners, I'm hoping they will be feeling the same at the end of nearly an hour of our conversation. So thank you. I really appreciate that.

Jerry Colonna: 49:39

It was an honour to be with you.

Scott Allender: 49:41

Alright, folks, until next time, remember, the world is evolving. Are you