'What Drives You?' with Kevin Miller

In this episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender talk to former pro athlete Kevin Miller. After decades of pro cycling, pursuing high achievement personally and professionally, starting multiple businesses, and raising a big family, Kevin found himself burnt out and lacking what he wanted most; sustained peace and fulfilment. In an attempt to understanding what was actually driving him, he dedicated himself to studying personal growth, self-awareness, and what truly fulfils people. Today, his “What Drives You” podcast is in the top 1% of all podcasts and his latest book, “What Drives You” (McGraw Hill) published in May 2023.

Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
 Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)

The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)

 
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The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

Transcript

Jean Gomes: 0:03

As we enter yet another year, hallmarked with political and economic uncertainty and the inevitable change that will drive us. One consequence is that we can, at some level, get into reactivity and short termism, because what's the point in making our own plans when everything is so likely to change. But this means we lose a sense of control over our lives. And negative self fulfilling cycles tend to result in our relationships, well being and focus. Instead, it's precisely now that leaders need to balance pragmatism with creativity, to deal in realities and draw deeply on their values to do the right thing. We always love talking to individuals who have pushed at the margins of endeavour to see what they've learned from what few of us have ever experienced. And in the show, Scott and I are talking with a former elite athlete, who explores the question of what drives us challenging some of the simplistic and binary models about motivation and fulfilment. So use this show as time to reflect on what's important in connecting with your inner self. So you can commit to aligning your values and action, and perhaps gain a little increased sense of control in this crazy time.

Scott Allender: 1:43

Hi, folks, welcome back to The Evolving Leader, the show born from the belief that we need deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to confront the world's biggest challenges. I'm Scott Allender.

Jean Gomes: 1:53

And I'm Jean Gomes.

Scott Allender: 1:55

How're you feeling today, Jean?

Jean Gomes: 1:58

I am feeling pretty good, apart from the fact that I had to set to go and see the doctor because I have an ear infection. So I'm my half my head is sort of muffled, but the rest of it is rest of my head and the rest of my body is in good shape. So I'm pretty grateful for that. How are you feeling Scott?

Scott Allender: 2:16

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty positive has been a little bit of a frantic day of demand. But I'm always feeling grateful to be back here with you and getting to have these conversations and today, in particular, because today, we are joined by Kevin Miller. Kevin began his elite athletic career at age 10 and quickly became a nationally ranked BMX racer. He started his first business out of his parent's garage at age 15. And by 16, he was pursuing a professional road cycling career that led him to racing in Europe. In addition to being a former pro athlete, respected Personal Development Guide, top ranking podcast host published author, and father of nine, who has devoted himself to helping people elevate their personal experience and prove the way they show up for others. Kevin hosts the self helpful podcast, which has over 60 million downloads and is routinely visited by today's most influential changemakers, I had the great privilege of being a guest on his show, and it was one of my favourite appearances I've ever done. And it was a real honour, and his book, which we absolutely love, what drives you. Challenge is today's myths on what driven people are and serves as a guide for clarity and conviction and what you authentically value and what truly motivates you, Kevin lives get this job at 9200 feet up in a national forest and a house he built out of straw. And somehow he has better Wi Fi than I do. His house serves as home base for his family of nine kids and four grandkids. And along with parenting, podcasting and writing, Kevin is often out on the rocky mountain trails, writing and running and competing at the elite level in his age group. Kevin, it's so good to be speaking with you again. Welcome to the evolving leader.

Kevin Miller: 4:10

And thanks for having me. It's I love having continued conversations with people. And you and I got to spend a good time as we did a series about you and emotional intelligence on my show. And so, to come and be with you guys and continue the conversation is just a gift. Thank you.

Scott Allender: 4:28

Well, it's our honour. Thank you,

Jean Gomes: 4:29

Kevin, welcome to the show. That introduction

Kevin Miller: 4:29

Oh, after that intro, I was thinking do I feel proud or do I feel like Holy smokes, that's just tiring to li creates, in my mind many images, including a potential Netflix sten to. It's a little ofboth, but I am I'm doing well, that documentary about what it's like to live that life. So you can question How do you feel? That's always such a big topic. You know, so many levels of that. Right now I'm a little sore. I'm imagine the nine kids running around and you know, the clouds sort of cloud base above or below your house and so on. So just recovering from the biggest bike accident I've ever had my welcome to the show. How are you feeling today? life ran finally. So I'm on the men from that, but I'm moving slow. So um, that's it don't feel myself physically, at least. And that affects the mental state as well, as you know. Yeah. Well, sorry to hear that. Hope you're on equipment. Yeah. It'll be a while. I'm in. Yeah, I can feel it. So I mean, given the topic of being driven, we need to get to your origin story and what, you know, what is driving you? You started your athletic career at a very young age, it's almost impossible to ask your 10 year old self, what, what was driving you there, but have you any sense of what made you get to the top of BMX racing at such an early age, and then pivot into trying to create your own business? At just 15? What was going on? I mean, there were some good things. I mean, I was brought up in a home that was very progress, progress, you know, thinking, I mean, it was how do you better yourself, how do you? How do you grow and change and succeed and whatnot. And that was good. I really embraced a performance mindset though, realising that man, as you achieve, you get accolades from people. And I embrace that to a big degree. So it was part authentic, and, you know, enjoy. I mean, I liked progressing and finding success in areas. And, but then it was a part of it, too, that in hindsight, now, I realise I was too addicted to because it was my self image. And so both both existed, you know, good and bad, bad, the ying and the yang existed. And I was, you know, from a sports standpoint as a kid, and that's what you did back then. And I excelled in, in most sports that I did pretty well and found my niche with the cycling with biking in different ways. And then, you know, on the business side, my dad was an entrepreneur, I never knew him to work for anyone else. He was always starting a business and running a business. And so that's what he taught me. That's what I was exposed to, I didn't really know anything else. I never knew a dad who clocked into work, who had a boss who got fired who in so that, and I think it also fit me as well. And so it was just an expectation of all of us, I think. And he worked in the automotive business. And so I learned some things in that arena and found an opportunity to, to have a business, I was actually tinting windows on cars in the family garage and bring them in, put a little ad in the paper, a local paper at a business phone in my bedroom, at my house that I paid for. And they taught me profit and loss and how to run a business and to be an entrepreneur. And so grateful for that. So I was handed that stuff on a silver, silver spoon, and it you know, meanwhile, I was making 50 bucks an hour all my friends were making back then minimum wage was like 375 It was unreal. So it was, it was a it was a good you know, so much goodness, I embraced some of it. When we talked about drive. There were also some things drive in me that were not so healthy, which is generally the case for both of us. There's good and bad. And that's what we want to root out. Yeah. And when your siblings all doing the same thing, or was it kind of what was the family life around all of this? I was I was pretty much an only child. My brother was born I was seven already. And then my since I was almost eight, when my sister when I when I was 10. So very different lifestyles, and even my parents, their lifestyle changed, and they moved and whatever. So I had kind of an only child type upbringing, but they were I mean, again, they never knew a dad who worked for somebody, it was always entrepreneur entrepreneurship. And well, I guess how did it affect them? I don't know if either of them have had a real job either. I think we all missed out on the real job thing. So I don't think anybody anybody go to my sister. I think what this did some college stuff too. But we all just kind of went into different business endeavours. And today, that's that's where we still are. My sister works with my dad in his business, but kind of has her own things going on as well. So yeah, that was, I don't know that. I wouldn't say it was an expectation. It's just what we knew and what we all embraced. And we never felt a fit doing something different. And I suppose in that way, the reason I'm kind of asking that question is this sense of control over your lives? Because the entrepreneur one of the things they're always you know, benefiting from is that they haven't got a boss. They get to call out what they want to do and how they want to do it. And you were taught that from an early age, so it's interesting to know how that shapes your identity to Oh, that was huge. I mean, yeah, the concept of somebody and I don't want my gosh, I have, you know, some of my best friends, our employees in great places with great lives and enviable aspects of everything. But yeah, I did not know what it was like to not be able to take time off when you want it to, you know, you may work more than than somebody else, but you take time off to deal with family was always and we always say that family first and whether it's first or not, it was always priority. And you kind of wrapped work around that or brought the family over to the office and were together and being able to be in control. Yeah, I've never known anything different. And again, I think it fit my personality pretty really well. In that, that I, I tend to like to leave my own ideas and have autonomy in that. So it fit that. But seeing the lifestyle, they did it so well. My parents really did. And it wasn't all success, I saw them lose everything, literally everything. You know, in high school, I remember shopping for clothes for the next next semester of school shopping with my mom, and I bought the clothes because my parents couldn't. They were they were wrecked, they were trying to stay out of bankruptcy. And but I had money because my dad had taught me to work. And yet, no matter what happened, whether it was and there's a lot of ups and downs, you know, one one year, we're going on vacations and driving a Cadillac Eldorado and the next year, we don't go anywhere, and we're driving something embarrassing, and I saw the ups and downs, and yet, we came to the dinner table at night. And nothing was ever different. Not that there wasn't some sadness, or some disappointment or whatever. But at the end of the day, you know, we're going to watch Dallas on TV and play Scrabble and do whatever. And that really gave me the aspect of trying and we talked about failure so much. And it gave me such faith and try and things if it doesn't work out, that's not a big deal. You're gonna you know, you live to fight another day. And I saw that that was the greatest gift, I think, I think the worst thing that would have happened for me in my childhood, is if I had not seen the failures, it was just beautiful to see I look back with such gratitude with that. And so I've worked to not shield my kids from the failures. And yet watch my attitude is that let not let the failures own me as well has been so convicting, so vital. And I think, well, I've had my kids attest to the same thing. So it's, it shaped my life, my parenting and pretty much everything. That's incredible. So

Scott Allender: 12:29

I want to get into the, you know, the good drivers, and as you say, the bad drivers, right? So let's get into that. But before we do, let's, let's talk about a working definition around drive, because you define it as a very strong energy and determination to achieve a goal or satisfy a need and straight out of the gate. You dispel the myth that some people are driven and some are not now your story, and watching your parents, and all of that influence that that feels unique to me in a way because many people don't have that sort of experience with their parents and didn't sort of weren't driven at such a young age to achieve. So there, there seems to be a spectrum of of drive. You obviously having a very distinct amount of drive. But you say that it's a myth that some people are driven and some aren't. So can you unpack that? And then maybe we could go into some of the positive and some of the less positive drivers?

Kevin Miller: 13:27

Yeah, yeah, it really is. I mean, I, you know, I look at that statement sometimes. And thank God, it's a great contrarian approach, you know, it gets attention, but it's honestly just what I believe in what I experienced. And your speaking of parenting, you know, I looked at my kids and man, I want them to be driven, not the hustle, you know, type thing, but I want them to know what they want and to go after it and devote themselves to it and find fulfilment and joy in their lives in that and so here I am, as a father, trying to foster what I think Foster's drive to showcase it to, to help them to push them. And then we I kept running, running across these experiences with people like Ben Hardy, who I lead the book off chapter one, Dr. Benjamin Hardy, one of them one of my favourite authors. And it was having him on a show four years ago, maybe or so and he's just kind of off the cuff talks about an essence that he was 19 he spends like 14 hours a day playing video games while his dad became a meth addict. His mom's kind of wayward over here. He's bouncing between homes and he's just escaping. So what was his drive? It was just to escape reality. And he, you know, spent it playing World Warcraft kind of looks around, there's no big thing that happens but kind of looks around and goes well, this is not really going to lead anywhere good. If I stay here, I'm gonna end up like everybody around me and my dead dad's meth addict friends and dead probably probably should do something different. So he grasped on to just one arena that looked like it had some promise to When he went that direction, and then his success rate or a success graph, just like a hockey stick, I mean, he just had incredible success. Like, you know, you think of it like the overnight success, where it just really rattled my perspective on Drive. Because I'm thinking, No, this, you got to build it, you got to create it, you got to whatever. And here's this dude who has nothing. It's everything. I would fear for my kids that they're 19 years old. They have no experience, they have no work ethic, they have no goals, they have no interests, and they're just wasting their lives away that I think men, they're just headed for the gutter, there's no hope. And what happens, the dude looks around. And in a very short time surpasses everyone. Well, he obviously had drive there, he didn't go to self help school, and listen to my show for a decade to figure this stuff out. He didn't go to conferences, he didn't have a coach, he went that direction, though, he just found a reason. And then the drive that's within all of us, he just let go. And again, it sounds like something like, oh, that sounds well. But that doesn't really relate. But we see it all the time we see somebody, you know, to make the exaggeration, we see the somebody that's the couch potato or whatever. And then something happens, it's a slow dawning of this is not going anywhere great like Ben had, or they may get something like have a heart attack. And the doctor says, Dude, if you don't change your life, you're gonna die. Or somebody does somebody in their family gets acutely ill we see these things, these little catalysts or something in somebody's perspective changes and all sudden, they find a reason they find a little trigger. And then they become Mr. or Mrs driven. And that was me looking back and go, they actually didn't go and read 200 self help books to go from zero to hero. It's just something done and triggered it. And so if we're over here, and our drive is dormant or neutral, it's there. It's not that you and that's what frustrated me with all these people listen, and especially the people I have in the show, and think, Oh, they got lucky. You know, it's like they were born with red hair. They were born with Dr. I didn't get so much. Or you can see siblings and yeah, you know, Bobby, he just didn't have much Dr. Jenny man, she just got all the drive in the family and must be genetic, you know, bummer for him. And we just don't see that play out in real life. I just see that people find a reason they get some clarity on what they want and why or they don't. It's not that they have more or less drive or ability within them. And I again, I saw this as it defied my own perspective of drive. And that's what got me studying it. And it's a great thing to find out. But yeah, it's not common knowledge, we tend to look at Dr as this thing that you either get some or you don't, or you're kind of on the spectrum. But the people that succeed, the people that we see, Oh, they got they won the Dr. lottery and they got a lot. And they didn't. And that's what I saw over and over as I was having people on my show here, these books behind me and say no, they didn't have anything more than anyone else. They just found a reason. So yeah, that was the first myth that was really up. It was just irrefutable. To me as we started looking into it.

Jean Gomes: 17:57

I always think it's interesting when you look at late developers, and often in their early career, they described themselves as lazy. Einstein, yeah, good. A good example, you know. And, and I like to think of that being true for myself and Scott as well. You know, we've there's hope here now, you know,

Kevin Miller: 18:30

It's a great question. And it's, I can say it somewhat easily. It's, but I'm not gonna say it's easy to do. But with, with those folks, again, they're often waiting for something to happen. I mean, we do that culturally, we've made movies about that. We love to see the person just bumbling along, and they've all fall in a chemical vat or get bitten by a spider, right? And then they have superpowers that they didn't have before. And yet that's not real life. Nothing is generally again, if I look at at the near 250 amazing people who I've had on my show, not a lot of them have some great story. Again, like Ben Hardy, they don't have some story of I was going along and then boom, this happened. It's all none of it makes a great story in and of itself, of where they finally just kind of looked at things kind of did an audit and said, You know what, this is what I want. And this is why which is again, you Each party heap keep you hear me keep laying that, you know, not not having one without the other. Because so many of us think we know what we want, or we take the cultural expectations of want and go after that. And we haven't questioned why. And we don't do that we often find ourselves going astray. But when we really look at what we want, and why give our give ourselves permission to back off the expectations that we grew up with, or expectations of culture, and get clear on it, you don't need so much, you know, motivation and inspiration, you just got clarity. Matter of fact, it's interesting as you maybe you guys will appreciate this, even since I've written the book, if I could go back and rewrite the book, I put much more focus on that term of clarity, we're just looking to get clear, if you'll get clear, you don't need to pump yourself up with all this motivate. And again, I'm a fan of motivation, I do it to myself as well. But I don't have to so much because I wake up in the morning, I know what I want. I know why it's pretty clear. I may have a day where I need to listen to some good music, have some coffee, and kind of get myself amped up a little bit. But I know I know what I want. And I see that with, with people so much. So my answer to that is, stop waiting for something, get clear on who you are, what you want, and why and really get great talks about granular get granular and why because your first answer to why won't be it you're gonna have to get like five levels down. I keep joking that that's my next book, like the five levels of why? Because we never answered the first why correctly.

Scott Allender: 21:26

I'm so glad you said clarity. Because as you were talking from the beginning here, the word clarity came to mind. And the other word that came to mind is connection. Right? So clarity and connection connecting to your why. But without that sort of spider by or falling in the vat. And with some of those those moments, what are some ways that people can do that? And really authentically No, this is what I want and why versus what you alluded to earlier, which is what might be expected of me. And I think I might have talked about this on your show we talked, maybe it wasn't but I use this illustration. A lot when I think about Andre Agassi, the tennis player, and he was incredibly driven and incredibly successful. And only at the end of his tennis career did he say I hated tennis I hated every minute I played tennis. Right? His end, he said my dad didn't know where his love for tennis ended and his love for me began. So his whole life was driven after this idea of capturing his father's love and approval, right? So I'm sure when he was in it, he convinced himself. I want to do this, this is who I am. So I know there's a lot in there. But if you could pull apart a little bit about how do we connect to our deep authentic purpose?

Kevin Miller: 22:43

Yeah, I mean, that's a great example. Andre, I'll come back to that. You know, earlier, I was gonna say I did have the great privilege, in my growing up of have been exposed to drive from my parents to I mean, my dad had me at that talk about motivation. He had me at the big motivational seminars. As a kid, you know, I'm in these rooms with Zig Ziglar is the ollie Norris and the Haley's famous people. And I got exposed to Dr. And it was such a great gift just to be exposed to people who were pursuing things that they cared about. And when I got years ago, when I was doing a lot of personal coaching, I realised that the hardest people I had to work with were those who were never exposed to drive to purpose, they were never exposed, they grew up in a home, parents weren't super on fire about anything, they kind of just did the basic survival stuff, which is great, they put a roof over the head and clothes on their back and fit on the table, you know, which is sweet, but they never saw it. And to wake up drive in them is hard, it was almost easier to find drive and people that were there exposed to drive or exposed to really hardship, really, really bad hardship. And it'll it'll develop drive that middle, that mediocre middle, you know, if you grew up in that it's really hard. So exposure is great. So now when you come to somebody, and you're trying to like somebody's here, this sounds great. When this happens a lot people guy sounds great, I get it, I get it, I got Dr. In me, you know, I want to go forward. I don't know where I want to go. And first thing I want to say is maybe you're in good company, don't beat yourself up for that you you may not have been exposed to much. And that's really the answer. The best answer is go expose yourself to things. I mean, today we've got, you know, gosh, you can go expose yourself to Netflix documentaries on different professions and different interests and whatnot and find the one that resonates with you and don't question it. You know, you can go out and experience so much these days, and some of it may be uncomfortable. But I'm amazed that you're even at being even even preaching this stuff. You know, with my kids, I've exposed them to so little to the best that I can and there's so many hours in the day, their slice of life of a pie of life that they've been experienced globally is so little and right now they may go out and experience that I just had a kid graduate from high school Go on my biggest push for him it's just just go do stuff. Go try stuff go experience stuff go be with different people go be with different. And now I say that and it's not that sounds overwhelming to we've done the work with him like with the Enneagram. And you know looking at emotional intelligence thanks to people like Scott Outlander and and helping him to understand his propensity is his predispositions. And we kind of know what lights him up. And so that makes it easier to say you could go try things in this area, but along those lines along those pathways, that we know that you're already bet, go do that. So it's not infinite. But then go expose yourself to more. And I find that that's, that's hard for people to, especially in this culture that we're in today where we stay isolated, but I mean, you can you can do it from the comfort of your home, turn on the TV, and you can stream anything, and expose yourself to different, you know, documentaries, and people experiencing different things and doing things. There's a book by Lynn twist, well, I've seen that it's behind me somewhere here. I'm gonna waste your time looking for it. It's hard to find, but by Lynn twist, renowned humanitarian, and her book is her latest book is about finding, just go out there and find the thing that we always talk about passions, right? Especially in the self help world to talk about your passions. And she's more on a on a way that I really appreciate, too. And she's kind of like finding what breaks your heart. What is out there that just calls to you, and breaks your heart. And it doesn't have to be, you know, my brother spent a decade over in Africa, rescuing people out of sex, slavery and stuff. And we tend to think it's like that, well, who do I talk to what breaks my heart? It's the it's the middle to upper middle and above class of Americans, actually, you know, anybody who's who's striving, but is just not finding fulfilment? And is so who am I? How am I helping them? Or how does that help the world who knows what the butterfly effect is, and I'm kind of past the point of trying to justify it, it's just who I feel called to, you know, but go find exposure to that thing that just, it just excites you don't worry about how altruistic it looks at first. And it takes some work. People need to do that, because a lot of times, yeah, they sit there and they go, sounds great. But I have no idea. You're right, you don't have any idea you're gonna have to go out and expose yourself to some ideas. Yeah,

Jean Gomes: 27:23

I mean, that makes total sense. Because I think there's probably a, especially for for a younger folk, there's a real challenge in being able to pull apart what really, truly motivates me where I find meaning and purpose around it versus, you know, this whole industry, communicating what that looks like and what you should. And so if you don't have an immediate sense of vocation, you want to be a doctor or you want to be a, you know, a geologist, or whatever it is. You have to engage in things to find that purpose and meaning, it has to be born out of experience. And

Kevin Miller: 28:00

that is, what the effort of my book is, it's to take you through the key areas of life and say, okay, statistically, this is where people find fulfilment. It's not one thing you know, but here's where people tend to find fulfilment relationally or with money or with work or whatever, here it is. Now, step back and consider what is it for you and give yourself permission to step out of just what you said, Gene, step out of the expectations that you were given by your family or upbringing or whatever, step out of the expectations that are culturally cultural, and let yourself look at okay, so granted that, you know, statistically, we know that there's, we're gonna find fulfilment in these areas, but they're in different ways, what fits me so I hope that that was the intent of the book is to help you audit some of these things. But at the end of the day, back to what I said, you're gonna have to go out and experience expose yourself to some things.

Jean Gomes: 28:46

Brilliant. So the next myth you dispel is this, how being driven equates to happiness? Can you pull that apart for us? That's a big topic.

Kevin Miller: 28:56

Yeah, it is. And, you know, my gosh, don't get me wrong. I mean, I love being driven. I love it. I'm so grateful. I think I'm grateful more so every day is I realise, especially in this culture we're in with ever increasing depression and apathy and numbness, that I'm so grateful. I feel incredibly privileged to wake up every morning with something I'm interested in something I'm curious about something I'm excited to progress and I think it was Tony Robbins who years ago said Man, the happiest people he finds are just those who are making positive progress towards anything doesn't matter what it is just that you know, I'm so grateful for that. Now, in and of itself, though, we all know those stories of people who had great success in an area that's what we applaud culturally. You have great success in some area your success, and we know the stories but we just don't conceptualise it. We know the stories so often that are those people fulfilled, do they have joy we know people who you know reach great success and committed suicide. I mean, we know that that's not the case in and of itself, just the drive alone is going to provide happiness. And I think most people, I'm sure you guys to some degree have gone after something and gotten to it and realise, well, that was disappointing. That was anticlimactic. That was, you know, was that worth it? And we That's the old adage, you climb the ladder of success, only to find that it's leaning against the wrong building. Well, that was written a long time ago. And it's still so true. And so being driven gosh, we look at that with celebrities and famous athletes today. And we applaud the success even though we may look at their life and it's absolute carnage. If you really dissect it, you say, Gosh, would you like to be them along with all that? And most of us go Oh, actually, no, we all love the success the end of the thing that they're on the front cover of whatever for but we don't look at the carnage I find myself calling that like small s success, you know, as opposed to the biggest wish is fulfilled. At the end of the day. does that person have fulfilment do they have peace? It's not all happy and fun to me happy fun and play I don't believe in that necessarily as the the end result, but an abiding fulfilment and peace and having purpose and, you know, being able to look back on life with with with joy. And I mean, I think about that so often that if I'm, if the day ends the day, am I don't feel good about what I've done. You know, I want that. So it drive alone, though. Yeah, we can drive. And that's part of my story. It's part of in the book, there's reason a lot of times I'm just driving with my hair on fire. That was a sight the quote by Yogi Berra in the book, you know, where he's driving the story goes to the Baseball Hall of Fame, and they pass the same landmark a few times. And finally, his wife says, No yoga, you've realised we're lost. And he says, Yeah, but we're making great time. And you know, it's funny, but I've done that. And it's usually not that funny when you do it, and you find you just drive and fast. And man, I've hurt relationships. I've sabotage businesses, by not knowing what was really driving me, which is a big part of of that you can be driving fast a lot of times, and you really don't even know why you don't know what's motivating you like your story of Andre Agassi. He's driving, and we all want to applaud that. But was he having fun? If not think, man, that's, you know, hopefully, he found it out in time enough to change his life, and he's doing something more fulfilling today.

Scott Allender: 32:23

Well, so what I hear you saying, and all of this is the need to cultivate deep, deep awareness. Because who am I? And what do I want? If it's all in the lane of what do I want to accomplish and achieve in terms of my riches and my fame or my you know, being liked? And all these things that's very one dimensional? And eventually you get there? And likely it will feel disappointing, right? Versus what you're saying earlier, which is, you know, what, what do I care about what breaks my heart? My kids and I were having this conversation just last week, and they're they're only 11 and 12. But they're getting asked more and more about this, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up kind of thing, which really causes them a lot of stress? Because they're like 11, and 12? And they're saying, I don't know, I don't even know what all the things are. Right? And so our conversation largely circled around as you grow up, look around you. And what problems do you see see in the world that you want to help solve? Like focus on that forget about the profession and the job and all of that, right, just what problems do you care about? What which is aligned to what you're saying around? What breaks your heart? Is there like a I don't want to oversimplify this but for people listening right now, is there sort of a self inventory approach that you recommend to to people can really find out and reflect on am I am I really connected to that thing that i That breaks my heart or that a problem I want to solve? How do I know my ladders against the right building?

Kevin Miller: 33:58

Yeah, I appreciate the question because you asked that you know about self awareness, which we talked about and I would say that is that's the Holy Grail. I mean, you know that you wrote the book you know, emotional intelligence I am trying to become that is my primary personal goal right now is to increase my awareness of my emotions and to be emotionally intelligent I have not I have not been that but that's a lot of the question emotional awareness I hear people you know at this point I guess I get it but awareness of what it was just kind of what your what were they being aware of? And in this case looking at Dr. It's my focus is of what you value of what you value not what your parents what your culture what the you know, the media whatever, not what they value but what do you value and that's the big audit I'm trying to bring people to in the book is to read through it and go okay, here's this story about this person, this person I get it, I get it. Okay, we find value in relationships, but what do I value? Do I want to get married? Do I want to have kids do I want one really close friend do I want 10 really close friends do I need 100 people on What is it that fits me? What's the what is it that lights me up? What do I value and then want to, you know, invest in and that aspect. I mean, that's, if, if I look at what's the ultimate agenda of the book, I wrote this with my kids in mind, my older kids especially. And it was if they would know what they value and be free to value that independent, independent of me, is not my values, which is, you know, that's hard to say, as a parent, of course, I've got values morally and ethically and whatnot that I want to pass on and give them exposure to and I hope they continue. But what do they value as far as what what do they want their career to look like? What do they want their relationships to look like their own health and wellness pursue their spirituality? What is it that they value? And again, it's not just an open book of me, I'm not sitting there as a parent or as a as a purveyor this state saying it doesn't matter. Just find what you value anything's Okay. Well, obviously, it's not. If you value eating m&ms all day, and that's it, you're gonna die. Yup. You know, I

Scott Allender: 36:03

hope you meant for you.

Kevin Miller: 36:05

I said all day you have today is totally fine. But not all day, you know, throw a veggie in there. So good protein, whatever. I mean, there's some obviously some values. And I do that in the book, I said, culturally, this is where we find the most fulfilment, the most health, the most life is in these values, but you find the one that works for you along that path of health and life, for you. And for others. Obviously, if you have a value that's hurting others, none of us are gonna say that that's okay. In essence, but yeah, that's really what I'm looking at as awareness of what you value. And most people don't do that we don't have a culture that does that back again, to my own, even in the areas that I was not cognizant of, I was not real, personally self aware, I did have the gift of being exposed to good values, and embracing those even subconsciously. And those kept me from going to astray. With that, and again, I hope I've I've done that I have some testimony that I have with my kids with my older kids, as I see them, different personalities, different walks of life, different values and pursuits. And yet those core values of health and life and goodness and whatever have have stayed true. And, man, I'm grateful for that.

Scott Allender: 37:26

Friends, if you're enjoying the evolving leader, I encourage you to order a copy of Jean's new book leading in a non linear world, which provides a new understanding of mindset, and how to build it in order to thrive in a more uncertain future. It's available online at all major retailers, and there's a link in the show notes

Jean Gomes: 37:46

that you're speaking a little bit into, then my next question is around how does you know somebody who's really found their drive and is pursuing it and feels that urge to keep you know, hard at something? Man, manage it in overdrive with relationships, and how that plays out with people, you work with your family and so on. And you know, can it can it become too much? And how do you manage that?

Kevin Miller: 38:12

Yeah, man, I think that's a pull for any of us, especially if we find something that works. I mean, we've got I can't, I can't separate myself from my ego, from my, you know, fully, I'll be working on it till the day I die to some degree, of course. But yeah, there's that propensity to find something and just go full tilt. And you know, it goes through cycles. And you know, even back to that, what if you find that? I mean, I see that sometimes now, where people find something I mean, I know people, vocationally, and they're really fulfilled in it, and they want to stay there and they don't want to get married and to vet and devote themselves to a relationship to a great degree, maybe just now or maybe forever. Who knows? I think, is that is that not okay? In our culture kit, but if you don't get married, is that all right? What if you don't some of my closest friends have don't have kids? Well, I've got 100 You know, so are they not whole? No, what I see now is there's some things that I've experienced, they are not going to experience some of the glories of life with having kids, they're not going to experience like that. And they are experiencing some things some immense glories that I am not going to because I made some other choices and have some other responsibilities and and looking at that, you know, and making some decisions on what do you want to be okay with as against part of the audit, what do you want to be driven towards and achieve and if you look at some area and realise that you're not, it's not a big concern, if you don't have a big value in there, you're not looking to be you want to be kind of healthy, but you don't care to be on the front cover of Fitness magazine or to look like Thor or be in a bikini or whatever. You just want to be well enough to kind of fine so that may not be your your, your biggest area of drive like it is me that's a bit Ain't going for me. But you may think I'm gonna put it over over here. That's fine. But then yeah, at the end of the day we're balancing Okay, is this drive having negative consequences on the backside? Again, we see that with people and wonder, Oh my gosh, yeah, they're driven and they're gonna kill themselves or somebody else before long. And it kind of back to your Andre Agassi man, if you're driven and you're doing some things out of some unhealthy drive, or you're overdoing it and ignore in other areas. I mean, there's, there's going to be damage from that. And I've done that I've driven with my life in some ways, it's damaged. Relationships, not so much my family, I was pretty devoted there. But I did a lot of taking people taking people taking, taking it for granted. I was gonna say taken advantage of I don't think I've ever said that, who wants to say that out loud. But I probably have taken advantage of people and just looked at them like I look at myself, do we're all just tools to make this thing happen? And I didn't pay attention to wait a minute, how about us about an hour, and I did that in my drive that I thought was altruistic, we're saving the world, we're doing this. And meanwhile, I was burning all the rest of all of us out just burning us. I mean, that's constant. And you know, a lot of times if you achieve whatever everybody thinks it's okay, but it's not at the end of the day, it's not. And generally, it leads to some kind of sabotaging, which is what I did with businesses, I think it's part of my bio, I don't think you guys read it. But a lot of my times my bio will include when he started 19 businesses, okay, I'll take some credit for that. But it's also because one I did a lot of I didn't know what the heck I was doing or why. And two, I just ran so hard that I burned us all out, and I just walked away from America, or I sabotage them. So it's not all a great story, I see that somewhat. And I can pick on serial entrepreneurs, I think a lot of serial entrepreneurs, managers, people who didn't know what the heck they wanted to do. And so they're going from this to this and this. And this, I don't know if it's always some great thing. every once awhile, you find some business artists, and they do it well. But I think a lot of serial entrepreneurs like me, and they just haven't found out what they want to be when they grow up.

Scott Allender: 41:53

Here, what I'm hearing in that is in overdrive, you can become singularly focused on the one thing at the expense of everything else around you. Now, speaking of those other things around us, I find that I can be pretty driven in many areas. And I can be incredibly lazy in other areas, and having done some work on myself with the Enneagram. As you mentioned, I have some insights now as to why I do that. But I'm curious, you know, thinking about listeners who might be contemplating what you're saying, and they might be thinking as well, gosh, I'm really driven here, but I'm also really lazy here and I'm not sure why I'm so lazy here is can you pull that out a little bit in terms of people that might be feeling that duality of driven in one area lazy another would like to be less lazy in that way? How do I connect more drive to those areas that require it?

Kevin Miller: 42:47

It's, uh, I appreciate the crush question again, Scott, because I with I always refer to him as aspiring people. But we have, like Arthur Brooks talks about strivers. That's it, you know, his his, he's a striving people, this type people who are gonna listen to this show are all in that or they wouldn't be here listening. They'd be over, listened into some crime show on whatever, you know, whatever, whatever network. And so with them, they're here because they're achieving some success. They're driven in some areas of their life. Most of them like all of us then have some areas where either we're not driven. Or we may that I find a lot of people they think they feel like they kind of are but they're in there doing the one plus one over here and the math is not working out. And they get really upset. I mean, I have I have a Gosh, I'm killing it in this area and this area. And I'm just sucking over here. And it's frustrating and it can lead us to feeling ashamed about that. Or yeah, just realising I'm just not that motivated. It's for me, it's money. mean that if you say there's an area that I'm lazy, it's money. I am not motivated by money. And that can sound altruistic, but you kind of need to be, you know, somebody's got to pay the bills here. We need some money to get the business going and the house paid for. And so I need to and I've got to get help with that. I find myself feeling lazy and it drives me generally back to realise in my mind that I have I lost clarity on what am I doing here? We do need money. Kevin, let's get clear on what do we use money for? Well, to feed the family feed the business, we can help a lot more people with money it does. It's kind of a measurement of hey, you provide and value out there in the culture, I gotta get my head back on straight so I need to be seeking clarity in those areas where I'm not doing so well. So consistently. I do not need to spend any time seeking clarity on my health and wellness. I love my fitness efforts. I'm good there. I don't really need to with my work because I'm just been I'm interested in what I do every single day. But now we come over to these other areas where I'm languishing a little bit and realise Okay, okay, I gotta do my I gotta, it's like affirmative action. I gotta come back here. Okay, what do I care about? In here? What what is it? That's That's what do I value? Come back to that, Kevin. And how are we doing? Now what do I need to do? And to that using money, which is the one I talk about for myself, that's always been my Achilles heel. I don't think I'm ever going to be super driven with money. I've kind of given up on that I'm not. And yet I have figured out what my values are. And so what do I do? And so back to health and wellness, I don't need anybody's help. I mean, not that I don't you know, my best friend's a functional medicine doctor, I can get help there plenty. But I don't need help being driven towards that. So I'm good. Over here, though money, I'm going to need help. So what do I do? I bring in other people. So I don't need other people's health and wellness money. I need other people. And so I have, you know, there's financial advisors or CPAs. There's bookkeepers, there's a lot of people that you can employ, and I keep them. There, my team to help me where I feel lazy, I feel unmotivated. And again, I've not, I like that. I like that perspective of looking at hate, there's some areas you want to shore up in your life, you do want more success, and yet you're not driven there. You may not be, let's get clear on your values. But you may realise, you know what, I'm just never going to be super driven in x, we'll get help. If you do you find if you find value there, which hopefully you do. Now, the only other caveat I'll put in there is there are some areas where I start the book off talking about spirituality, and I make the case that spirituality as a value, historically with humans, provides a significant amount of fulfilment, there's very few people who end up on my show, who don't have a spiritual component that's primary in their life, I didn't have them on the show, because of that they're on my show, because of that. So I'm making the case that spirituality has a lot of value historically. That said, if you look at it and go, You know what, I just don't care and I don't want to care, okay, doesn't mean you're going to be a failure in life, you may just be permissioned, I'm not going to, I'm not going to give that a lot of a lot of focus, okay? Again, I'm not I think we need to look at those and get honest with ourselves. But even that, let's get it out in the table, though, and understand where you are. And there may be some where you realise you know, I'm just going to be kind of lazy, I think I'm always going to feel kind of lazy with money. Now, I am an employ other people to help me make sure that there is some there. But, but you know, some of this, I like that even to just getting honest with your drive, because otherwise you find people who are constantly feeling guilty and trying to turn away at something, and you realise they just don't care. Okay? Well, either you're good with not caring, and that's going to have an effect and make peace with that, kind of figure that out, do the math, or get some help with it.

Jean Gomes: 47:38

So Kevin, this conversation is fantastic. And I wish we had more time and I know you've got to head off to do something else. But your Your work here is trying to get people to move out of what you call living a life of the mediocre middle. And harnessing drive much more intentionally becoming aware of how to find it, align it with your goals and maintain it. What's next for you in terms of the research that you're doing? And the the message you want to carry to the world? What are you really focusing on next?

Kevin Miller: 48:13

I mean, this aspect of driving, are you talking about being mediocre? Which I do talk about that? And you know, I want to I want to pull out that when we talk about that because when you think about not being mediocre you think oh, I need to be better than the mediocre better than other people and to take that out of it. You know what what is success for you is success for you. It's a big part of the whole book, what is what you want to drive towards is for you and you alone, you know, you justify it doesn't mean being better than other people. But it's being the you you want to be being the fullness of you. We hear that term a lot. But I do I want that. And I want that for other people. I mean, this is selfish, I love. I'm so grateful to be driven. And I love to be around other driven people. I mean, I loved Scott, we spent the near three hours talking when I had you on the show. And it just lifted me it inspired me nobody's inspired by somebody who's just dying on the couch. You know me I want to be around driven people, but I want them to see it well to that. Yeah, again, drive. You can talk to some people about it. And almost you can almost see the weirdness in their eyes. They feel like Man, I've been driving so hard for so long. Can I just rest? And again, let's look at the values. What do you value? And even you know, again, I'm 52 years old. Arthur Brooks great book is laced with strength to strength. I'm in a different time of life. I don't want to be less driven, but my drive is changing. And I'm looking at that and my drive may be and I want people to see this that if you if your drive is good and authentic, it's going to provide peace, not anxiety. It's going to provide fulfilment not stressed out. This isn't about doing more. We just had Ben Hardy back to him again on the on the show about his book 10x is easier than to x and he's saying doing some of these things with your head on right looking at big things is actually easier. Yeah, this isn't, this isn't. So we're not talking about being driven and just driving yourself into the ground, my drive is changing from my next mountain bike ride, when I go out instead of trying to get another PR, which I love to do, especially at 52. But really, I can get another PR, you know, and beat when I did when I was 45. Or that's awesome, I want to do that. And I want to have the drive to sometimes stop in the middle of ride by the high mountain lake, sit my butt down. Just be present. And be aware, get in touch with my emotions with Scott Eleanor's help, and and to just have joy and go, Oh my gosh, and that's a different drive, that may produce more fulfilment than the PR, honestly, at this point in life. It does. So you know, I want some of both, but it brings me back to again, what is my values? And it may be a day to day, what today what do I need? What do I value? What do I need today, and today, man go out and kill it. And today go out. And it's kind of that don't just sit there do something. And some of my days are don't just do something Kevin sit there still drive, it's the same drives just a different value that I'm looking at. So I want I want to help people continue to get clear on what is going to be the fulfilling drive for them. And that if they are driving well, it is not. It's not what their hair on fire. It's not drive until you're burnt out. In the end. We're seeing that so often with people who are burning out I want to keep people from burnout, and to drive with joy even as they drive fast. I gotta admit, man, I still like speed. But I want to do it, I want to do it with with peace, a little less vibration and a lot more alignment. And with the

Jean Gomes: 51:44

presence you're bringing to this conversation, I've got one final question before I hand over to Scott, which is, what's it like to have nine kids?

Kevin Miller: 51:54

What's it like to have nine kids? It's there, if you did a pros and cons list. I mean, they're it's some of it's amazing to see their interactions with each other. I've had some of the kids, I had one recently. So you know, Daddy, this Mike siblings, this big family is the greatest gift. It's just second to none. I'm so grateful for it. And I'm not doing it just so you know, the work that it takes, you know? Totally, totally fair. And there are so many payoffs, you know, so many good things. And it's also nuts. I mean, it is I would it's honestly, it's the true answer. It's a store. It's an area where we were just driving. We're driving fast. We're having kids, seven of them are biological. And then we adopted two more, and there's stories behind that. And oh, my gosh, of course, Do I regret any of them? No, if I had to do it over again, but I have nine kids? Probably not. It's a lot of work. I didn't really look at Gosh, what do we want to do? What would nine kids look like? We never asked that question. We were just driving minute. We finally had the seven the biological kid and I'm like, holy smokes dude, I am done two days after he was born. I got snipped. So this doesn't happen again. Of course, we still ended up, we still ended up adopting some. And so it is it's incredible. And it's a lot of work. It's one of those where, you know, I'd sit back and go, Gosh, you do you want kids? How many having kids? You know, you start off with a relationship. Once you have kids, it's like saying, we're gonna go into business together, we're gonna raise another human together and make decisions together on this. Do you want to do that? Because I know some people who are just married, they don't have kids. And they don't want kids, they have a great way they want to focus on their relationship and their careers and whatnot and helping other people. And that's awesome. And don't don't let kids get in there and get in the way for that. Some of you may want kids you want one? Fine. You want nine? Did you start and that's, I think your type of business you better, you better, you better know what's in store for you talk to some people who have had those kids and see what kind of lifestyle they have, or what they would have done differently. You know, being an entrepreneur and loving to start things. It's, it's it's difficult to do that when you got all these kids. I mean, it really is there's been a lot of times I thought, Man, I could do this a lot more in depth and broadly if I didn't have 500 kids, but yeah, so you're good, good and awesome and challenging. How's that?

Jean Gomes: 54:15

Sounds like a party every day.

Kevin Miller: 54:18

It's not boring, that's for sure. Yeah. Well, Kevin, there's like 10 More questions I want to ask, but we're out of time. So we'll have to catch up another time. Talk to you again. Everybody. I can't recommend this enough. This book, what drives you? by Kevin, if you need to pick this up now? There's so much so much usefulness in here and thought provoking passages. So strongly encourage that. And again, Kevin, thank you for your time for your insights and for our listeners. Remember, the world is evolving. Are you